Forum members located here in the UK might like to check out the letters page of the new issue of the ‘Radio Times’, Dawn French cover, out today. There is a letter there-under the heading of ‘Ancient History’-from a German lady who REALLY lays into the fact that the Dambusters film was shown on TV recently.
‘Let sleeping dogs lie’ is one valid argument, but, you should read the tone of this letter! I actually found it quite hurtful, on behalf of the crews involved.
By: ageorge - 18th October 2002 at 18:21
RE: Radio Times ‘Dambusters’ letter…
That’s a very moving website , to think of that many people being massacred within living memory is almost incomprehensible and very humbling , makes you appreciate even more the sacrifice that thousands of the allied forces gave in order to allow us to have freedom of speech and democracy.
By: Arabella-Cox - 18th October 2002 at 13:47
RE: Radio Times ‘Dambusters’ letter…
Alastair,
Sorry for not responding earlier, I’ve been away from my PC for a couple of days.
I think the tone of my posting was probably a bit aggressive, sorry. I just wanted to make the point that Germany really does now seem to want to understand what happened on their soil between 1933 and 1945, and that there is a great willingness there to try and ensure that it never happens again. Some of the memorial staff at Belsen told me they were sickened to see Neo-nazis still existing in Germany, but paradoxically they also draw strength from it, in that it focusses the mind – these people still exist, they’re still dangerous, and Belsen is a reminder of what they can do if we let them. Lesson is, we mustn’t let them have power. And that’s a global ‘we’.
As I say, I probably went a bit over the top with my posting. Maybe that’s understandable, having been to Belsen and walked among mass graves containing two, five, ten, twenty thousand people. Standing in a patch of woodland, looking at the concrete foundations of huts 9 and 10 tends to be very humbling, especially when you are looking at the utter carnage shown on a photograph which was taken by a British soldier in April 1945, who had then been standing on the very spot you are on now.
Yet this place is lovingly cared for. The mass graves are tended by the locals, as are the solitary headstones dotted around the now overgrown compound. Every year, more parts of the camp are uncovered and rescued from the undergrowth, mostly by local volunteers and youth work groups. There’s a distinct sense of sadness and remorse around the place, but that’s tempered by an air of determination to preserve this difficult part of German history and show the world that they can learn from it.
I came away from Belsen this summer feeling very humbled, both by the tragic events which happened there less than sixty years ago, and by the efforts being made there today. If anyone here ever gets the chance to go there, I’d urge you to do so. And in the meantime, if anyone has any doubts about the German people’s sincerity, please do take a look at the Belsen website. http://www.bergenbelsen.de
By: ageorge - 17th October 2002 at 17:36
RE: Radio Times ‘Dambusters’ letter…
Exactly correct Damien , almost all of the AA that Speer moved was relocated from near Regensberg and Schwinefurt – and we know what the Flying Fortresses did to Schwinefurt 2 months later , the book is obviously written from a Nazi point of view but the reality is that a brave operation using an ingenious bomb did damage way beyond that normally capable using only 20 Lancs , and fear of a repeat operation tied up masses of AA units which would have been better deployed else where.
By: ageorge - 17th October 2002 at 14:48
RE: Radio Times ‘Dambusters’ letter…
If anyone wants to get really angry read page 165 of Albert Speers latest biography , written 19 years after Speer’s death by a fellow Nazi there is a full paragraph explaining why the Dams raid was a failure !! and how Speer successfully moved a 200 strong AA belt into position within one day and how the expected followup incendiary attack never appeared ( while the fire brigades had no source of pressurised mains water ), I have a German copy , I’ll try to get an English translated version and post the paragraph , it makes Frau Trout’s letter look like a sick joke.
Alastair
By: ageorge - 16th October 2002 at 22:23
RE: Radio Times ‘Dambusters’ letter…
Well put Tony , obviously its a touchy subject but we should never forget that thousands of US and Commonwealth forces gave their lives to give us the freedom to watch , read and listen to what we choose , anybody who thinks otherwise is sadly deluded .
Besides if the German lady in question was so offended she should simply have changed channels.
Alastair
By: Ant.H - 16th October 2002 at 21:41
RE: Radio Times ‘Dambusters’ letter…
Well put Tony,nice one! 🙂 I just hope they print some of the letters that have been sent in response.All too often in newspapers,mags etc, they will publish a letter by someone who hasn’t a clue what they are talking about,and then they fail to print any of the responses sent in reply to it.Uppermost in my mind are the events of June last year and the coverage they recieved in the general media,particularly the Evening Standard.Goodness knows how many letters they recieved from us forum members and the wider public,but they chose not to print any of them.
By: tonydyer - 16th October 2002 at 21:33
RE: Radio Times ‘Dambusters’ letter…
Chaps
the war is still emotive to many people. I have a friend who will never forgive the Japanese who despatched his uncle in an unspeakably hideous way. There are also many many tales of atrocities committed by the Germans in the war. It is obvious that they do feel bad about it (like I do about some of the things the Brits did over the centuries). No way should we hold modern Germany to task all the time over the war. I am the last person to bash modern day Germany or Japan as we are friends now. Unfortunately though, we (the world) are not good at learning from our mistakes…witness recent genocide in the world and Europe. The lady did make my blood boil as the Dambuster story is part of modern British history…..if you will indulge me, the following is what I sent to RT…..
“I thought that I had to reply to Britta Sporkmann’s letter in the last/latest excellent copy of RT. She complains about the Dambusters film and it being a very effective propaganda film 60 years ago and in this 21st Century should be left on ‘dusty archive shelf’. Well, no Ms Sporkmann I could not disagree more. The brave feat by the Dambusters should never be underestimated or forgotten. Sure the film is triumphant and has stirring music but we Brits are proud of our past and our brave boys who turned the tide against nazism. The Dams raid took the war to the enemy, stirred the British people and brought a ray of light in those dark days. Yes, 1600 German people regrettably died not to mention the 617 Squadron Lancaster crews (part of 56000 Bomber Command war dead and a similar mount of US bomber crews) but imagine how many were saved by the possible shortening of the war? In this 21st century it is important that we stamp genocide, fascism, racism, intolerance and inhumanity. In Europe we are quite rightly friends now and that is great. But we must not forget that nazism accounted for over 28million deaths, that is the lesson we all must learn and pass down to our children. We must not repeat those mistakes. However, heroic feats such as the Dams raids and the Battle of Britain show that even in despair there is hope.”
regards
Tony
>Steve ,
> I did’nt mean to offend and apologise if I did , however
>I would like to point out that there is no mention of the
>Holocaust in any German secondary school History syllabus ,
>I worked with a few Germans for a period of 10 years and the
>only real knowledge they had of the Holocaust was self
>learnt from books and articles they read themselves , this
>is probably because that most Germans of the last generation
>knew of the existence of these camps and German industry
>took advantage of the cheap labour that 14 “death ” camps
>and 41 Concentration camps provided – it’s also a sad fact
>that 2 of the biggest users of forced labour -AG Bayer and
>Siemens are still major employers in Germany.It’s only in
>the past 15 years that books such as Olga Lengyels “Seven
>Chimneys” and “Hitlers Willing Executioners” were even
>printed in German .The Japanese have the same self denial
>attached to their own history too – the Second World war is
>not even mentioned in ANY Japanese schooling – although the
>Japanese/Russian War is.
> Britain too shows some signs of self denial , prominent
>Jews were interned on the Isle of Man and were not allowed
>to join British regiments they could only serve in “alien “
>units , also , Britain was the first user of “Concentration
>camps ” during the Boer War , this also is barely touched
>apon in the British history syllabus , we tend to hear of
>the siege of Mafeking and other historical highlights , very
>rarely ( if ever ) do we ever read in any British historical
>literature of the thousands of Boers and native African who
>were starved to death or died from Cholera in these camps.
>However I do appreciate that the Flypast Forum is not the
>place to bring up or debate European History so I do
>apologise , I’ll stick to aviation from now on .
>
>Alastair
By: ageorge - 16th October 2002 at 17:58
RE: Radio Times ‘Dambusters’ letter…
Steve ,
I did’nt mean to offend and apologise if I did , however I would like to point out that there is no mention of the Holocaust in any German secondary school History syllabus , I worked with a few Germans for a period of 10 years and the only real knowledge they had of the Holocaust was self learnt from books and articles they read themselves , this is probably because that most Germans of the last generation knew of the existence of these camps and German industry took advantage of the cheap labour that 14 “death ” camps and 41 Concentration camps provided – it’s also a sad fact that 2 of the biggest users of forced labour -AG Bayer and Siemens are still major employers in Germany.It’s only in the past 15 years that books such as Olga Lengyels “Seven Chimneys” and “Hitlers Willing Executioners” were even printed in German .The Japanese have the same self denial attached to their own history too – the Second World war is not even mentioned in ANY Japanese schooling – although the Japanese/Russian War is.
Britain too shows some signs of self denial , prominent Jews were interned on the Isle of Man and were not allowed to join British regiments they could only serve in “alien ” units , also , Britain was the first user of “Concentration camps ” during the Boer War , this also is barely touched apon in the British history syllabus , we tend to hear of the siege of Mafeking and other historical highlights , very rarely ( if ever ) do we ever read in any British historical literature of the thousands of Boers and native African who were starved to death or died from Cholera in these camps.
However I do appreciate that the Flypast Forum is not the place to bring up or debate European History so I do apologise , I’ll stick to aviation from now on .
Alastair
By: Arabella-Cox - 16th October 2002 at 17:08
RE: Radio Times ‘Dambusters’ letter…
>I often
>wonder if German history classes deny all knowledge of the
>Holocaust ???? .
In short, no they don’t, and I find your assertion that they might be hiding from the truth deeply offensive.
I spent an extremely moving day at Belsen concentration camp earlier this year, and I can tell you categorically that the local German authorities and population maintain the site of Belsen as a stunning yet sympathetic memorial to the thousands who died there.
Throughout Germany, there are numerous such sites, be they former concentration camps or Allied war graves. All are tended and treated with the greatest reverence.
Germany has a very dark past. Nobody denies that, least of all the Germans. But the vast majority are trying damn hard to learn from it, and ensure that it never happens again.
By: ageorge - 16th October 2002 at 14:36
RE: Radio Times ‘Dambusters’ letter…
Excellent Damien , if the Germans can’t handle the truth they should’nt go trying to annex other countries , all they have done is cause trouble for the last 150 years . I often wonder if German history classes deny all knowledge of the Holocaust ???? .
Unfortunately it looks like the Germans will have control of New Europa by peaceful means thanks to the European Parliament , I say sod Europe lets stick to the Commonwealth !!!
By: Arabella-Cox - 16th October 2002 at 13:26
RE: Radio Times ‘Dambusters’ letter…
Having not seen the original letter, I don’t know quite how offensive it would have been. However it certainly seems to be stirring up some, erm, interesting reactions. Could somebody please post the original letter up on the board? (I’m far too tight to buy Radio Times 🙂 )
By: Ashley - 16th October 2002 at 12:27
RE: Radio Times ‘Dambusters’ letter…
Damian…a wonderfully eloquent letter…I hope it gets published…
By: kev35 - 16th October 2002 at 10:04
RE: Radio Times ‘Dambusters’ letter…
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 16-10-02 AT 10:05Â AM (GMT)]Well done Damien. Now, in the current climate of political correctness, will the BBC have the courage to print it?
Regards,
kev35
By: whalebone - 16th October 2002 at 09:21
RE: Radio Times ‘Dambusters’ letter…
Spot on Damien, my sentiments exactly !
By: Ashley - 16th October 2002 at 07:53
RE: Radio Times ‘Dambusters’ letter…
I read this letter last night and I am still seething…was the silly old trout (I have more choice words for her but they are far less polite) asleep during the final scene with Wallis and Gibson, the grief of so many airmen’s lives lost etched on Wallis’ face?
If it wasn’t for men like Gibson and his boys….
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
By: ageorge - 15th October 2002 at 22:04
RE: Radio Times ‘Dambusters’ letter…
My sentiments exactly Snapper , anyway there are countries who would pay to have an irrigation system like that , they got theirs FOC thanks to 617 Squadron .
Alastair
By: Snapper - 15th October 2002 at 21:24
RE: Radio Times ‘Dambusters’ letter…
How could they make films of those? THEY LOST! Anyway, they started it,they invaded Poland. (From Dambusters to BOB to Fawlty Towers). Why was she whingeing anyway? She should be proud of her roots, she sure as hell would have been if Germany had won. Didn’t have to watch it did she?
Deutschland Deutschland Unter Wasser….
By: ageorge - 15th October 2002 at 20:42
RE: Radio Times ‘Dambusters’ letter…
Well the assholes should’nt have tried to annex half of Europe !! , The Dambusters are part of our history , if there was a film made of the London Blitz , the Clydebank Blitz or the Coventry raids would she complain then ??? . Make her watch Schindlers List and then ask why we had to bomb them in the first place.
By: tonydyer - 15th October 2002 at 17:58
RE: Radio Times ‘Dambusters’ letter…
Lancman
thanx for drawing my attention to this! I am spoiling for a fight at the moment so here I go!!
Tony
>Well, I didn’t want to be the first one to say it myself…
>:P
By: Bluebird Mike - 15th October 2002 at 17:50
RE: Radio Times ‘Dambusters’ letter…
Well, I didn’t want to be the first one to say it myself…
😛
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October 15, 2002 at 5:05 pm