RAF crew killed in mid-air 14/6.

AFAIK, the CAPS in the Cirrus SR-series aircraft has been used with both success and failure (involving fatalities) a number of times. It (or similar systems) might be an option for other aircraft types as well in the future, but one should be aware that it does not guarantee for survival. If possible, a forced landing is often preferrable.

Regarding aircraft colour-/contrast markings; how effective are they?
After what I’ve heard, orange colour stripes often used on white fiberglass gliders have not been reported as effective.

Ballistic parachutes are the way forward.

cheers Baz

I totally agree baz,I just think that a retrofit to an existing design may not be that easy.

cheers baz

Mounting points,structural modifications/strong points,storage space(for system),weight and CofG,positioning of system for safe deployment taking into account all of above….may not be that easy on a light a/c with a sliding canopy !

regards baz

I’m not an engineer or a designer, more of a dreamer who often talks tosh, however, if you throw enough money (and beer) at a problem, engineers often come up with solutions. Ballistic parachutes are the way forward.

cheers Baz

Don’t see why not.

I was looking at this system fitted to a cirrus and another on a (ultralight?) Gorilla. It didn’t look that heavy and you can redeem some weight by not having individual chutes etc.

cheers baz

Mounting points,structural modifications/strong points,storage space(for system),weight and CofG,positioning of system for safe deployment taking into account all of above….may not be that easy on a light a/c with a sliding canopy !

regards baz

Hi Baz
I have never sat in a Tutor but I have heard that the canopy jettison system is perhaps not ideal,and perhaps not as good as the Bulldog system.
As you say…now that ballistic rescue systems have matured a bit perhaps they could be considered for the tutor replacement,but i would guess they really have to be an integral part of an a/c design,would it would be possible to retrofit to an a/c structure ?? also the tutor is not overblessed in power/weight ratio anyway.

cheers baz

Don’t see why not.

I was looking at this system fitted to a cirrus and another on a (ultralight?) Gorilla. It didn’t look that heavy and you can redeem some weight by not having individual chutes etc.

cheers baz

The Cirrus 22 is fitted with a ballistic parachute system called CAPS, it has been used in anger a few times and works very well, bringing the aeroplane and crew safely down to earth together. It’s not a very big system and they are being fitted to more and more different types of aircraft. I have flown as a passenger in chipmunks, bulldogs and navy grobs since the early 70s and realistically I doubt very much in most emergencies I would have abandoned any in a double quick time. Most of these flights operate below 5,000′ giving aircrews little time to escape effectively (let alone novices)
It may now be time to look at this system and if possible retro fit it to our tutor/grob fleet.
It pains me to see another tragic loss.

Please don’t chastise me for my opinion ( it may be tosh, but it’s my tosh)

Baz

Hi Baz
I have never sat in a Tutor but I have heard that the canopy jettison system is perhaps not ideal,and perhaps not as good as the Bulldog system.
As you say…now that ballistic rescue systems have matured a bit perhaps they could be considered for the tutor replacement,but i would guess they really have to be an integral part of an a/c design,would it would be possible to retrofit to an a/c structure ?? also the tutor is not overblessed in power/weight ratio anyway.

cheers baz

The Cirrus 22 is fitted with a ballistic parachute system called CAPS, it has been used in anger a few times and works very well, bringing the aeroplane and crew safely down to earth together. It’s not a very big system and they are being fitted to more and more different types of aircraft. I have flown as a passenger in chipmunks, bulldogs and navy grobs since the early 70s and realistically I doubt very much in most emergencies I would have abandoned any in a double quick time. Most of these flights operate below 5,000′ giving aircrews little time to escape effectively (let alone novices)
It may now be time to look at this system and if possible retro fit it to our tutor/grob fleet.
It pains me to see another tragic loss.

Please don’t chastise me for my opinion ( it may be tosh, but it’s my tosh)

Baz

ATC Viking Gliders have had large Dayglo orange bands on the wings for a while. If it can be done on a Grob Glider, It can be done on a Grob Aircraft. However, I don’t think the lack of colour on the Tutor plays a part in either of the accidents which have happened to AEF aircraft this year. Lack of any colour on the Glider which was hit from below is another story (there are a number of photo’s of that aircraft on the net).

The ATC glider dayglow panels are not universally liked,and to me they do not seem very dark/bright anyway.
I absolutely agree that the lack of colour on grobs is unlikely to be a major contribution to the 2 ATC accidents…however it is in my view a very poor colour scheme,because the coloured areas are blue which is one of the least conspicuous colours available.

I once flew in an ATC Grob Vigilant which had the large dayglo bands on the wings (i’ve flown 2 or 3 others which didn’t have them) – the pilot mentioned he wasn’t keen on them as they disrupted the outline of the aircraft when viewed at a distance

ATC Viking Gliders have had large Dayglo orange bands on the wings for a while. If it can be done on a Grob Glider, It can be done on a Grob Aircraft. However, I don’t think the lack of colour on the Tutor plays a part in either of the accidents which have happened to AEF aircraft this year. Lack of any colour on the Glider which was hit from below is another story (there are a number of photo’s of that aircraft on the net).

How about red, yellow or blue then (and no I’m not being fascetious) – bands across the wings and around the fuselage like the yellow (or white bands?) on the black Tucanos seen at airshows?

Anything to give a contrast to make the Tutors (and white civilian gliders too) more conspicuous angainst a uniform sky background.

Or is it paint of any sort that increases degradation of the composites?

Paul F

It is the temperature rise caused by dark colours absorbing light/heat,the skin temp difference between (say) a white and red area is considerable.
It would be the a/c design authority who would limit the colour and size/position of any conspicuity panels.
My old composite glider had red nose,wingtip and rudder areas to try and give some conspicuity/contrast.

cheers baz

Whilst not wishing to play devil’s advocate or apportion blame may I suggest that one or both pilots were not keeping as good a look out as they should in what is a relatively busy patch of sky at weekends, and even busier last weekend as there were gliding championships taking place too whiic always increases aerial activity around this area regardless of where they are being held.

Not being contrary here but do remember that Gliders especially are VERY hard to see at times. The slender fuselages and wings make them hard to spot against almost anything from any distance, only when the sun flashes off the tops of the wings in banking are they easy(er) to see.

In response to the side-by-side seating thing thare are +ves and -ves (I fly in a very simmilar aircraft to the Grob). The person next to you does make it harder to the side, however it is possible to see round them and out the back and ront for both people. The side-by-side also makes training easier as the student can more easily see what the instructor is doing and vice-versa.

M

AEF Flights resumed as at 09:45 today

My brother, who is an Air Cadet instructor in West Sussex Wing tells me AEF has been resumed as of this morning.

Paul F

Don’t think you can paint composite aircraft black. They disintegrate in the sun if you do.

Moggy

How about red, yellow or blue then (and no I’m not being fascetious) – bands across the wings and around the fuselage like the yellow (or white bands?) on the black Tucanos seen at airshows?

Anything to give a contrast to make the Tutors (and white civilian gliders too) more conspicuous angainst a uniform sky background.

Or is it paint of any sort that increases degradation of the composites?

Paul F

As a former Air Cadet myself, this is terrible news and my thoughts are with the families concerned.

From every AEF detail that I went on (most were from RAF Benson in fact, which makes this story even worse to contemplate!) I can assure everyone that all cadets had a briefing and were made to watch the mandatory safety video every single time before they could go.

I believe the chutes worn these days are Irvin 85s, could be wrong

Yes, this type of parachute rings a bell with me, although I left the Corps just over 4 years now so it may well of changed since this time.

Cadet Air Experience flying HAS indeed been suspended for the time being.

Whilst this is a disappointing outcome, its a somewhat unavoidable decision as to loose any young soul is bad enough, but three in the space of five months is tragic. I am sure other cadets that have not yet had the chance to experience the thrill of flying yet will be disappointed, but should support this decision in light of recent events.

Whilst not wishing to play devil’s advocate or apportion blame may I suggest that one or both pilots were not keeping as good a look out as they should in what is a relatively busy patch of sky at weekends, and even busier last weekend as there were gliding championships taking place too whiic always increases aerial activity around this area regardless of where they are being held.

Don’t think you can paint composite aircraft black. They disintegrate in the sun if you do.

Moggy

What is the latest trendy colour scheme for max visibility. Clue- look at a Tucano, it is BLACK, as are Hawks.

What colour were the glider AND the Tutor? White.

In ‘the olden days’ there were more RAF aerodromes, with more dedicated airspace, and maybe that exclusivity and Radar coverage reduced the collision risk. I flew with the cadets AEF out of Brawdy and Coltishall and apart from higher altitiude fast jets, we seemed to have the sky to ourselves.

Probably, but unlikely to have helped in this case. Not many gliders carry mode C transponders

Moggy

An awful lot of gliders are now equipped with a very low cost, low power, self contained collision avoidance system called FLARM……… 12,000 + units sold worldwide, maybe up to 400 in the UK gliding movement. A powered a/c FLARM has recently been introduced to market. The introduction of FLARM in places such as Switzerland has resulted in an order of magnitude reduction Air to Air collision between FLARM user.

Controller based Mode C is just too slow to really provide collision avoidance for G/A/glider traffic density and Mode S is going to be obsolete before its roll out…….just look at the Mode S mess in Holland recently. An enhanced ADSB which works on a very similar principle to FLARM has been suggested as an ultimate workable solution.

I would respectfully suggest that equipping the whole Tutor fleet with FLARM at approx £500 a unit would probably cost less than a single accident investigation.

Cadet Air Experience flying HAS indeed been suspended for the time being.