From about 1942 to until the advent of the 30mm Aden gun, RAF fighters had a standard armament of 4 20mm Hispano cannon carrying between 150 to 200 rounds per gun. At a rate of fire between 600 and 800 rpm this meant that firing time was very restricted and accuracy was vital. The aircraft also carried a gun camera which showed the sight and the forward view. This was based on a 16mm cine camera, but ran at half normal speed to conserve film.
I had always been interested in shooting, having watched the BoB as an 8 year old and then subsequent actions during the war. As a night fighter nav/rad I was very lucky to be posted to a squadron equipped with the Mosquito because, sitting beside the pilot, one was able to experience the action almost as well as the pilot. Additionally 39 sqdn had an excellent Gunnery Officer, who gave the pilots lectures to get them to understand the ballistics and the difficulties of aiming at a moving target.
The Mosquito was equipped with a simple reflector ring sight, the diameter of the ring being adjustable according to the span of the target. Known as a ‘fixed ring’ sight. This meant that the target was at 350 yards range when the span filled the ring. Ballistics is an acquired taste and a combination of arithmetic and geometry which is beyond my powers of description:). The Meteor had a gyro stabilised gunsight (GGS) making life a lot easier. This had a central pipper surrounded by a ring of 8 diamonds, which again could be adjusted for target span. 350 yards was about the longest range at which the gun could be considered accurate, considering the gravity drop of the rounds and the loss of velocity caused by drag. Not only was the pilot expected to be an expert at aircraft recognition, he had to remember the span of each. In practice a guess was good enough. However in any case it was essential that the aircraft was flown correctly, the old slip and skid indicator needles had to be straight.
Simply put, to hit a target crossing the fighters line of flight the guns had to be aimed in front of the target so that the rounds and the target arrived in the same place at the same time. This is known as deflection shooting, similar to shooting birds with a shotgun. To help the pilots understand this we had a clay pigeon range where the pilots could practice. They were taught to allow deflection by ‘rads’, i.e. the radius of the gunsight ring. One ‘rad’ would give about 30 degrees deflection, but it was a very rough and ready method.
It was a total waste of time and resources to get a fighter into a position where it could shoot down its target, to find that the pilot could not shoot straight. To this end regular exercises were carried out, as described below.
1.Cine. This exercise involved simulating firing the guns, but only the camera was operated. The films were assessed to see how accurate the pilot had been in allowing the correct deflection with the fixed ring or holding the sight on the target correctly with the GGS.
Attacks were by the standard ‘ high quarter’ method. In this the fighter positioned himself slightly ahead, well above and about 800 yard off to one side. Then with a rapid turn in towards the target and a sharp reversal about 60 degrees deflection was obtained, as the range closed so the deflection dropped off until firing had to stop. The turn was again rapidly reversed to allow a zoom climb to get ready for the next attack, these manouvres allowed a short burst to be squeezed off, provided everything had been correctly judged. This exercise was carried out very frequently.
2.Air to Air. This was firing at a target towed by another aircraft, when we had the Mosquito the tug was a Beaufighter, which towed a drogue, similar to a windsock, about 12 ft long and 4ft diameter. When the Meteor arrived, one aircraft on each sqdn had a hook just behind the ventral fuel tank, to which a ‘flag’ could be attached. This was a nylon sheet about 15 by 5 ft stabilised by a metal spreader bar with a disc at one end and a weight at the other. This was to enable it to be towed easily along the runway at takeoff and to fly upright once airborne
In either case pilots were not allowed to fire at less than 30 degrees deflection to avoid the danger of rounds ricocheting off the target and hitting the tug. This actually happened when we were on detachment to Habbaniyah and the Wing Commander Flying there wanted to have a go in one of our aircraft and was a real press on type. One round went straight up the jetpipe of one of the tugs engines:eek:.
3.Air to Ground. This entailed firing at a sheet of canvas 10 ft square, set up at 30 degrees to the vertical. This was because the standard attack involved diving at 30 degrees, a quick burst, and a rapid break away and climb to carry out the next run. When we had the Mosquito this exercise was also carried out at night:(, when the nav/rad had to go to read off the altimeter to try and stop the press on regardless types flying into the target:D:D. The reason for this was that the Egyptians had brought their army, with a good few tanks, up towards our bases to intimidate us into leaving. This happened on three occasions, first, in Oct 1951, when King Farouk was attempting to make himself popular. Second when Farouk was deposed by General Neguib in May 1952 and again when Col Nasser became frustrated with Neguibs lack of progress in June 1953. Each time they were advised that we would be having some target practice:D:D, so they wisely withdrew, but it was a bit worrying.
Sorry this is rather long winded, hope some find it interesting, and I know there is one forumite who can correct me on my guesses at target sizes.
By: Teekay - 10th July 2011 at 00:58
…. they gave us a glider to shoot at…..
That would be one of these, with a 25′ wingspan. We tested them at FWS in the hope that they could be used with radar-ranging gunsights rather than the usual 30′ flags, and of course they also looked more realistic.
Trouble was they were more expensive and when damaged could do more harm if they came apart or broke away when returning to base over the heads of the general population.
They also took time and trouble to takeoff and land.
When landing them, the Meteor tow pilot had to be talked down (preferably not onto the runway in use) by someone in the the tower or caravan and then he dropped the towline at the appropriate moment. This sometimes resulted in the landed glider running fast and unpredictably across the airfield. I saw one hit a hut full of workmen on a tea break – they shot out of the door like ants out of a nest but were unharmed.
Another time I was talked down short of the runway and the tow line ended up across a main railway, resulting in trains being delayed while a railway crew arrived to clear the line – they wouldn’t let the RAF do it.
We also used these gliders to demonstrate air-to-air shooting to pilots taking the Pilot Attack Instructor (PAI) course. The pupils were bused out to the coast range and then watched as a couple of us instructors, using operational ammo, shot down the glider (stuffed with fuel-soaked rags) as it was being towed past.
The idea was to see it go down in flames in front of the awe-stricken pupils but these demos rarely went as planned.
I never saw a glider actually catch fire despite the use of incendiary and tracer rounds, and sometimes it took several passes before the glider showed any effect, which left the watchers less than impressed. Lots of fun for all, though!
By: Teekay - 10th July 2011 at 00:58
…. they gave us a glider to shoot at…..
That would be one of these, with a 25′ wingspan. We tested them at FWS in the hope that they could be used with radar-ranging gunsights rather than the usual 30′ flags, and of course they also looked more realistic.
Trouble was they were more expensive and when damaged could do more harm if they came apart or broke away when returning to base over the heads of the general population.
They also took time and trouble to takeoff and land.
When landing them, the Meteor tow pilot had to be talked down (preferably not onto the runway in use) by someone in the the tower or caravan and then he dropped the towline at the appropriate moment. This sometimes resulted in the landed glider running fast and unpredictably across the airfield. I saw one hit a hut full of workmen on a tea break – they shot out of the door like ants out of a nest but were unharmed.
Another time I was talked down short of the runway and the tow line ended up across a main railway, resulting in trains being delayed while a railway crew arrived to clear the line – they wouldn’t let the RAF do it.
We also used these gliders to demonstrate air-to-air shooting to pilots taking the Pilot Attack Instructor (PAI) course. The pupils were bused out to the coast range and then watched as a couple of us instructors, using operational ammo, shot down the glider (stuffed with fuel-soaked rags) as it was being towed past.
The idea was to see it go down in flames in front of the awe-stricken pupils but these demos rarely went as planned.
I never saw a glider actually catch fire despite the use of incendiary and tracer rounds, and sometimes it took several passes before the glider showed any effect, which left the watchers less than impressed. Lots of fun for all, though!
By: PeterVerney - 8th July 2011 at 19:52
It was very rare that our squadron ever did any air-to-air live practice in the NF versions of either Mozzies or Meteors.
I have had a trawl back through my logbooks and would say that in Egypt we had a firing exercise approx every two months, in addition to the annual three weeks in Cyprus on the APC, which was devoted solely to air to air firing.
In the UK air to air firing averaged out at every three months, plus again annual visits to the APC at Acklington. The APC jaunts were great holidays for us navs and in Cyprus much time would be spent in bars and night clubs.
In addition to these exercises I note entries occasionally for “air into air”, where generally all four guns were loaded and would be fired off at high altitude, no doubt to test the guns and possibly get rid of outdated ammo. One of these was the only occasion that I actually fired the guns of a Mossie. We sat cosily together so I just had to reach over and press the tit when instructed.
Another tale concerns a sortie at Acklington when they gave us a glider to shoot at. These had a Y shaped divided tow line, which hitched to hooks at about a third span of the glider. As normal, four aircraft were firing in turn and the very first man hit one arm of the Y tow. As a result the glider flew one wing well down and nose pointing about 30 degrees from its line of flight. My pilot, Joe, tried his damndest to hit the thing, lining his sight up on the tug and then letting it run back down the towline, but still couldn’t hit it. He was extremely cross, and let fly with a bit of Polish, but even that did not work. That was the only occasion when he did not get a score in all the time I flew with him
By: PeterVerney - 8th July 2011 at 14:33
Air to ground at night in a Mossie NF. I don’t think UK squadrons did air to ground at any time, certainly when I was on 152 in the middle ’50s we only did air to air. The squadrons in Germany may have done air to ground, but in MEAF we certainly did more air to ground than we did air to air. I think the reason being that we may have been required to enliven the Egyptian army had they tried anything serious in their various excursions towards us. The reason for the night air to ground as I understand it, was that we would be able to disturb their sleep. How we would have jumped at the chance, anything to enliven the dreary sandy environment, shortage of beer, and poor diet.
By: Teekay - 7th July 2011 at 17:46
Air to ground at night
Air to ground at night in a Mozzie NF?? I Can’t imagine what that must have been like and I’m glad were certainly never required to practice it! It was very rare that our squadron ever did any air-to-air live practice in the NF versions of either Mozzies or Meteors.
After all, they mainly designed to creep up behind the enemy at night and shoot at close range, not do any high quarter attacks in daylight. The guns and gunsights were adequate for stern attacks, but we were still practicing outdated WWII tactics even though our aircraft performance was virtually useless against the actual Russian threats of the day.
By: PeterVerney - 7th July 2011 at 08:29
and I was always amazed at the trust they had in us pilots,
I have to say that because I was aged between 19 and 24 I had supreme faith in the fact that “It couldn’t happen to me, it was always some other silly so and so”. I had enough cause, I flew with 44 different pilots on NF Mossies and Meteors.
I will admit to being a tad worried at times, but then things happened so quickly that any danger had passed before it sunk in to my dim brain. Air to ground at night in the Mossie was a very interesting experience :D:D
By: Tin Triangle - 7th July 2011 at 00:12
What a splendid thread. Thank you very much, Peter, for sharing your reminiscences. For a 21 year old like me the RAF of the 1950s is something one reads about in books, so your tales really bring the period to life!
By: Teekay - 6th July 2011 at 23:54
….As a navrad I could only sit there, alternately moaning and criticising
Actually I never heard a navrad complaining while in the air, and I was always amazed at the trust they had in us pilots, and how they would never say a word against them – at least in public. This despite the fact that some pilots were definitely sub-par and scared the hell out of me on the rare occasions I had to fly with them on check rides or as a passenger.
I have always believed this was a case of navrads just having to reassure themselves that their pilots could do no wrong, otherwise they’d end up gibbering in fear if they really thought about it. What do you think, Peter?
By: AutoStick - 6th July 2011 at 20:45
Now this is what I call interesting –great reading —cant add anything as I know little ( apart from shotgun deflection shooting)..many thanks to all concerned!!
By: PeterVerney - 6th July 2011 at 19:26
Welcome to the forum Teekay.
Very interesting to hear from someone who has really been there, done that, got the teeshirt. As a navrad I could only sit there, alternately moaning and criticising
By: Teekay - 6th July 2011 at 16:43
Re the difference in accuracy between the Mossie and the Meteor NF. I don’t think it really differed, the variance between pilots abilities was greater than that between the two aircraft…
I have just lucked onto this forum and have been reading your posts with great interest, Peter, as we seem to have been contemporaries. I went through 228 UCU Leeming in Jan 1950 as a pilot, where I teamed up with Sgt. George Jane, my navrad. We then joined 264 Sqdn. at Linton, which was still flying Mosquito NF36s.
Re gunnery, I was later posted as an instructor at Fighter Weapons School, Leconfield in the 1950s and soon joined the Trials Flight there, where we carried out numerous trials of gunsights, targets and techniques etc. I flew most marks of Meteor during that time, plus various marks of the fighters of that era – e.g. Hunter, Vampire, F86 Sabre and Venom.
I won’t nitpick your comments on gunnery of that era, apart from saying that the Meteor NFs were definitely poor performers in air-to-air gunnery for various technical reasons, regardless of pilot, particularly when compared to the Meteor F8.
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May 29, 2011 at 9:26 pm