RAF jet kills

Looking back on the old posts by DJJ he talks of the stolen C-130 from Mildenhall and the possibility it was shot down off Alderney by an RAF Phantom. He talks of it being 1966 and before the RAF had Phantoms. However, I recall the incident well as I was staying with my sister who lived near Mildenhall then. I am pretty certain it was 1969 but I’m sure a google search would pin it down and I know it was May or early June. Also, I am pretty sure that the RAF had Phantoms by 1968 and they were operational (6 or 54 Squadron?) by summer of ’69 and I think as I recall a visit to Scampton (I think?) in what must have been about then – possibly 1970 though – where I think 54 Squadron were and, I thought, had been for a year or so.

Doubtless someone will shoot me down as I am relying on memory.

Just had a quick look at Wikipedia they quote

Around 15 RAF squadrons received various marks of Phantom, many of them based in Germany. The first to be equipped was 6 Squadron at RAF Leuchars in July 1969. One noteworthy deployment was to 43 Squadron where Phantom FG1s remained the squadron equipment for a remarkable twenty years, arriving in September 1969 and departing in July 1989. During this period the squadron was based throughout at Leuchars.[87]

The interceptor Phantoms were replaced by the Panavia Tornado F3 from the late 1980s onwards, and the last British Phantoms were retired in October 1992 when 74 Squadron disbanded.[28][87]

Looking back on the old posts by DJJ he talks of the stolen C-130 from Mildenhall and the possibility it was shot down off Alderney by an RAF Phantom. He talks of it being 1966 and before the RAF had Phantoms. However, I recall the incident well as I was staying with my sister who lived near Mildenhall then. I am pretty certain it was 1969 but I’m sure a google search would pin it down and I know it was May or early June. Also, I am pretty sure that the RAF had Phantoms by 1968 and they were operational (6 or 54 Squadron?) by summer of ’69 and I think as I recall a visit to Scampton (I think?) in what must have been about then – possibly 1970 though – where I think 54 Squadron were and, I thought, had been for a year or so.

Doubtless someone will shoot me down as I am relying on memory.

However, at least one FAA Wyvern was shot down by a Soviet flown MIG-15, but that’s about it from what I can tell.

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That’s interesting Firebird, I just finished reading ‘Wings Over Suez’ and it made no mention of any Wyverns shot down by a MiG, only some by flak. The overriding theme of that conflict was the MiGs were ordered not to mix it up, and were only fleetingly seen, and often mistaken for French F/RF-84s which were similar in shape. This was much to the frustration of some pilots, but also to the relief of many others, such as Venom and Sea Hawk jocks who were accutely aware of the shortcomings of their birds vs. the newer Soviet stuff. I have wondered though what would have happened should say some of their Furys or Meteor F8s mixed it with the straight-winged FAA birds.

In a way I should think the Hunter pilots defending our bases during the crisis were a little put out they didn’t get to fly offensive ops over Egypt. I heard there were some close calls though on intercepts, with them nearly shooting down incoming French or Transport Command stuff. What would have been EVEN more interesting were the US/UK encounters. Some close calls from what I read when tensions got high. I can’t believe the gall of the US Sixth fleet sometimes in getting in the way like that.

Fascinating thread this.

The only gossip I’ve ever come across about Mig 15s and Suez was that bits or a whole one was captured and brought back to Cyprus (and possibly on to Farnborough)

A list of European Air Forces post-WW II air-to-air-victories from the www.acig.org web site: http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_303.shtml

Regards,

Jan

I suspect there’s an element of exaggeration on the part of the info from the US about all those MIG’s being shot down by British and French forces.
Don’t forget the USA/British/French releations at the time of Muskateer were strained to the point of breaking. The USN constantly tried to interupt the British and French forces at every opportunity, and at one point several USN commanders asked for permission to attack the British Fleet…. 😮

I’ve only seen a few references to any engagement of Soviet/Czech flown MIG’s and any British aircraft, at the time of Suez, with no loss recorded by either side in the air.
However, at least one FAA Wyvern was shot down by a Soviet flown MIG-15, but that’s about it from what I can tell.

It’ll be the 50th anniversay of the Suez Crisis later this year, so it would be good to find out a bit more about the events of this time.

Wow. Any further info on this? What’s the recorded history of that incident, if any? My Googling has failed me.

A story from a 38th TRS pilot who flew RF-84s out of Spangdahlem in 1956. He and another pilot were staying over in Athens after delivering two RF-84s from Brindisi to Larisa:
“On the fifth day of our rest (from the “grueling” 40 minute flight from Brindisi to Larisa), we were taken to the Athens Int’l Airport, to be picked up by Maj. Rufus Barnes (10th Tac Recon Wing Ops) in an RB-26. While we were waiting to be picked up, standing in the shade of the U.S. Naval Attache’s SA-16, twenty-one MIG-15’s landed and were refuelled by Royal Dutch Petroleum’s fuel trucks (with white sidewall tires, no doubt bought with U.S. dollars. . . ). The Russian pilots were wearing flight suits without insignia or other markings. After refuelling, they took off, bound for Cairo. Over the Med, British and French pilots, flying NATO fighters based on Cyprus, intercepted the Russians. Nineteen MIGs were shot down enroute, one was shot down on final approach to Cairo Airport, and the other MiG landed and was strafed on the taxiway. While that was happening, we were making the turn over Marseille, heading home, when we got a radio call to proceed directly to Spang, and go directly to 38th TRS operations. (At that time, we did not know about the shoot downs. . .we found that out after landing at Spang.) For three days, “the buzz” was that WW-3 was about to start. The Israeli Army had crossed the Suez, and was advancing toward Cairo. The Russian’s MIGs were supposed assist the Egyptians, and counter the Israeli advance.”
Something must have happened!

6. There is strong circumstantial and hearsay evidence that a Tornado F3 CAP was ordered off prosecuting a contact with two Mirage F1s by the orbiting AWACs during Op Desert Storm to allow a Saudi F-15 pilot to destroy them.
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Heresay pointed to ALL non-US aircraft being ordered off or not directed in favour of US aircraft, with the exception of the ‘propaganda’ Saudi kill (and then, to an F0-15 alleged to be heavily escorted by USAF aircraft just in case)

During 1980 whilst gliding with the Air Cadets an RAF Sqn Ldr who was filling his weekends by flying gliders kept us entertained with his stories of being a Phantom pilot out in Cyprus during the Turkish invasion.
He claimed a Turkish F100 as destroyed. This F100 had flown over the SBA during the Turkish invasion and the Phantoms had chased it away (without firing anything) but only after it had ditched its external tanks. Later they heard the Turkish rescue service looking for the pilot who had run out of fuel and not made it home. This being as good as a kill to a fighter pilot
He also described doing a similar thing (Buzzing it at high speed) to a Cypriot spotter plane, although he couldn’t hear (those on the ground could) the pleas being screamed over the radio by the Cypriot pilot to leave him alone.

I think you are right DJJ. I often wonder what would happen if some hostile Far Eastern country decided it needed some “lebensraum” in New Zealand. Not sure the Ozzies would turn up for that one.

A random set of points:

1. ‘Charlie’ Chan went on to be the CO of 17 Sqn when it formed on the Eurofighter Typhoon.

2. The Harrier being shot down by the Lightning comes up every now and then on Pprune, and the consensus (helped by the fact that people who were at Gutersloh at the time have contributed…) is that it didn’t happen. Events were, in fact, as DGH thinks, with the GR3 crashing of its own accord.

3. The C-130 that was stolen by a groundcrew member is also discussed on Pprune on an on-and-off basis. Consensus is that *if* it was shot down, it was brought down by an USAF aircraft, probably an F-100. The event occurred before the UK had bought Phantoms (1966)

4. As for the unacknowledged shoot-downs, the Javelin kill in Borneo is quite plausible given the circumstantial evidence; I gather that there is also some circumstantial evidence to suggest that a Venom FB4 bagged an Egyptian aircraft during the Suez campaign.

5. RAF pilots made up about 25% of the SHAR force during CORPORATE and were responsible for about 25% of the victories gained.

6. There is strong circumstantial and hearsay evidence that a Tornado F3 CAP was ordered off prosecuting a contact with two Mirage F1s by the orbiting AWACs during Op Desert Storm to allow a Saudi F-15 pilot to destroy them.

With respect, the notion that the RAF hasn’t had to shoot down enemy aircraft since 1945 and therefore doesn’t need a fighter simply doesn’t make sense. For a variety of reasons, the RAF simply hasn’t had much opportunity to do so, bar examples offered above and in a couple of earlier posts.

French pilots haven’t shot down anything since 1945, so should they get rid of their Mirage 2000s and do away with air defence altogether?

If a nation loses control of the air, it’s done for. Relying on a friend who might not be willing or able to turn up on time is dangerous beyond words – we still have Trident to put off adversaries (and have never used our nuclear weapons), so investing in a multi-role combat aircraft doesn’t seem too bad in comparison…

Flt.Lt. Graham Hulse survived an in-flight break-up of a Meteor he was flying at CFS Little Rissington, but I believe he was shot down and killed by his wing-man over Korea.

Depends whether you count V1s as pilotless aircraft or unguided missiles. Also depends on whether there were any shot down using onboard weapons, or just tipped out of control using the wash from the wingtip (though I can’t imagine all V1s shot down by Meteors were done so by this method).

Either way, it probably wasn’t what Royzee617 had in mind!

The interviewees in “Tempest at War” claim that tipping was very rare, and that doctrine in fact said that pilots should not do so, as the bombs were (or believed to be) rigged to blow if tipped. They emphasised off-beam cannon attacks (still very dangerous, needless to say).

That’ll be a “no” on the V1 question then?

Depends whether you count V1s as pilotless aircraft or unguided missiles. Also depends on whether there were any shot down using onboard weapons, or just tipped out of control using the wash from the wingtip (though I can’t imagine all V1s shot down by Meteors were done so by this method).

Either way, it probably wasn’t what Royzee617 had in mind!

That’ll be a “no” on the V1 question then?

A Harrier GR.3 in Belize took a bullet in the intake whilst firing at low level over the range. Whilst not destroying her she wasn’t repaired due to the imminent retirement of the type.

Yeah that was mentioned in the first post and I can remember it happening – I just thought I had read somewhere about a Lightning knocking down a Harrier whose engine had relit post the pilot ejecting!

Dont ever recall hearing that, but there was the incident when a Harrier suffered a birdstrike while on detachment in Denmark. The pilot ejected when he lost power but the ejection somehow managed to knock the engine back into life and the Harrier continued. A F104 was launched to intercept it but the Harrier ran out of fuel and crashed before it was needed. Could this be the same incident?

As regards Lightning XR763 as Camlobe says the pilot managed to shoot the castor wheel on the target which then proceeded to be ingested by the air-intake and into the engine. The devastation from which casued the pilot to loose both engines as he approached Akrotiri. The tail was kept at Akrotiri for many years as a memento / reminder and may well still be there.

Do V1s shot down by Meteors count?

There was an RAF Jaguar shot down by a Sidewinder accidentally launched by an RAF Phantom crew on exercise in Germany in 1982. 😮

If that’s not an air-to-air kill, I don’t know what is!

Yeah that was mentioned in the first post and I can remember it happening – I just thought I had read somewhere about a Lightning knocking down a Harrier whose engine had relit post the pilot ejecting!