RAF Out Of Leuchars (But Staying At Lossiemouth)!

Seems to be a severe thread creep. Where’s the historic aviation gone??

Here’s an example where the future may be for defence screamed personnel

Why did I make the last post ? It has if anyone bothers to read it fully (I have emboldened the extracts of relevance) answers to where the aerospace industry has a great need for skilled personnel (or re- trainable). The RAF personnel are some of the most highly trained professionals in the world – a gift to any aerospace employer.

A slap in the face, a disaster of some magnitude is how the closure/relocation of Leuchars is perceived by many. Only natural.

If the HR function within the RAF is working then they will be busy trying to position every skilled person within Leuchars or call in commercial recruitment colleagues who can advise on early re-training and position those who wish with aero space manufacturers (my post).

Tackling a crisis can be usually one of two ways – mull over purely the negatives finding scapegoats to devour and getting so bogged down one cannot see the wood from the trees OR to as any good RAF pilot would do in a flying crisis – kick in all the innovation and skill and use brain/logic to make the negative into a positive.

Turn this negative into a positive is the message I have – the individual solutions will not be always there on a plate but if the boys in blue cannot innovate and think outside the box then I am going to be very surprised, as this is not the case when you see them in action.

While agreeing that politics, economics & greed are inextricably linked to the fate of RAF Leuchar’s, I must admit MoggyC as mod was correct to recognise that we had drifted more into general discussion.

I wish to post this and although it’s title isn’t RAF or military but comes from a civil aviation post I made yesterday, the chunks within the article which spell some of the doom for Boeing have a sparkle for any boys in blue that are trained to look at future jobs in the aerospace industry. Jobs with longevity.

For anyone that wishes to get access to FT please register, it’s free for 30 full article reads per month. All you set up if you wish to be slick with receiving alerts is a flag in your email Inbox filters that selects only the almost daily FT Aerospace & Defence listings. Be aware though to look out always for journalists sometimes incorrect technical jargon.

Sadly with the current globalisation one has to go where the work is and the boys in blue are some of the world’s best trained professionals and will make a god’s gift to companies like Boeing.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f2c75fda-a803-11e0-afc2-00144feabdc0.html?ftcamp=crm/email/2011719/nbe/Aerospace/product#axzz1SZUsF2K1
Boeing’s 787 Dreamliner close to arrival

“…..“Some parts coming in still need reworking, plus we’re still ‘travelling’ jobs, and we’ll be doing it for years,” says one 787 line worker, referring to the need to move tasks from one assembly station to another, as work cannot be completed on time.

Production in Seattle will be complicated by Boeing’s need to set up a “surge line” in a former paint hangar to retrofit 787 models that were assembled before all the aircraft’s design problems were ironed out.

A further production challenge will be getting Boeing’s new plant in South Carolina, which officially opened last month, to produce three 787s a month within two years. Because the plant is brand new, Boeing is depending on workers with no commercial aerospace experience, although some have come from the US Air Force.

A legal dispute with its machinists’ union means that no workers will come from Seattle to help train the new workers. Instead, they will have to learn their jobs from videos.”

Here’s an example where the future may be for defence screaned personnel working side by side in future with scientists testing of prototypes, in manned aircraft, in UCAVs and in space.

Please see my thread – Atomoic Navigation
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=110865

What better candidates for jobs, for places at University (with or without an industry sponsor) than existing RAF personnel who have been screened for defence clearance – they surely can see a future in all that’s happening.
It’s certainly way beyond the quagmire of economic depression we currently are in, but no trough lasts forever.
They just have to make a bold step – if Leuchars is shutting and they are likely to be displaced with that old fashioned word “go with the RAF’s blessing” to conquer new frontiers.
The world needs you.:D

Lossie – Home for retired Phantom(s)?

Not a chance! They’ve got bigger fish to fry.

Anon.

Oh Crickey yes Kinloss flying stops 31 Jul 11 – Lossie’s the sole survivor after 2013

My bad – Oh Crickey yes Kinloss flying stops on 31 Jul 2011 – Lossie’s the likely sole survivor after 2013 with Leuchars Typhoons going there.
http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafkinloss/

Will Lossie take these poor orphaned Phantom’s and Lightning ?

Shame to see them go to scrap.

Flying one is an absolute no-no. It would not be allowed by the US, the restoration would cost an arm and a leg and no-one would accept the mantle of design authority, to name but a few significant reasons.

Anon.

Are you saying that they would’nt allow a Civilian one to fly outside the US ? as I believe the Collings foundation in the states fly one as part of their Vietnam memorial flight.

What about moving the two jets from Leuchars (is there a Tornado F3 still there too?), the Javelin off the gate at Leeming, finding a Meteor, a Vampire and a plastic Spit and Hurri and then building a National Air Defence Museum somewhere?

Other exhibits could include a Bloodhound and a Rapier to keep the cloud punchers happy.

What do you think? Where could it go?

From what I gather, East Fortune was offered an FG.1/F4K from Leuchars some time back but knocked it back as they said they already owned one. As the F4S has no place in Scottish history, I thought they would have snapped their hand off for an F4K!!!

While I dont agree with the following this is how it was explained to me as:-

We have a Phantom so dont need another. Our vistors can see an aircraft in USN colours which is a bit different from RAF camouflage. Why would we expend a lot of money changing to an ex Leuchars Phantom?
We could paint it as a civil aircraft and put it beside Concorde. (OK I made that last bit up):rolleyes:;):rolleyes:

From what I gather, East Fortune was offered an FG.1/F4K from Leuchars some time back but knocked it back as they said they already owned one. As the F4S has no place in Scottish history, I thought they would have snapped their hand off for an F4K!!!

East Fortune has a US Navy Phantom which arrived in the early 00s. I think it was originally at the Fleet Air Arm Museum, but now belongs to the NMS.

I’m sure they’d love one with Scottish heritage as it were, I can’t see them taking a second one, or flogging off the US one.

At Leuchars
XT864 Phantom FG1 “A/BJ” 9098M
XV582 Phantom FG1 “M” 9066M
XV586 Phantom FG1 “AJ” 9067M
XR713 Lightning F3 “C” 8935M

At East Fortune
155848 Phantom F2S EX VMFA232
XN776 Lightning F2A “c” 8535M

How many Phantoms are still at Leuchars and what models/variants?

How many Phantoms are still at Leuchars and what models/variants/serial numbers?
If this is not facts that are covered by “If I tell you I shall have to kill you” type stuff.

On track – I shall be at RAF Leuchars Air Show on Sep 10 as always

On track – I shall be at RAF Leuchars Air Show on Sept 10 as always – it should be good. Even with torrential rain last year to begin with it was a great day.

All is not lost for well trained Air Force personnel and if the RAF cannot retain you then look at Airlines and Boeing in Charleston. The aero space industry needs you.

We admire the service you give and sleep easy knowing you guys are around.

Enough.

I know it was my post that sparked this, so I’ll have to now take responsibility for deleting any further discussion that includes oil revenues, Alex Salmond, Scots Independence or the like (No matter what other relevant points are contained in it. I haven’t time to edit.)

My apologies for starting the drift, but this thread is so far off the rails for Historic that the only alternative is to move it to GD.

Moggy
Moderator

Sadly in current times the entire UK is in a bad financial state and belts need to be tightened. Everyone has a self interest and no matter what government was in power, cuts would need to be made in defence. This will effect people across the whole island. Its only part of the problems we will all face in the coming years, with people across many industries loosing their jobs aor having to cahnge location or type of work.
Although in Scotland we enthusiasts will miss the closing of RAF bases, the reality is that the future is approaching. Perhaps we dont “need” an Air Force as a separate entity any more or can even afford one. Manned aircraft may be on the way out or at least very limited in aircraft numbers. The UK is not a super-power although we would still like it to be.
All this nonsence about what Scotland is going to do about defence is irrelevant and we should just stop whining. This is the Historic Aviation Forum not a Political or a Football Forum.

If you are interested in Avation History support the museums and people flying old aircraft. Want to see military aircraft flying in Scotland, go to Lossiemouth.

Poorly researched ignorant and insulting twaddle! :rolleyes:

Twaddle maybe to you but I suggest you read what responsible reports including the First Minister’s closest advisers have to say especially on oil revenues.

http://news.scotsman.com/scotland/39Too-late39-for-Scotland-to.5340951.jp
‘Too late’ for Scotland to claim North Sea revenues
Published Date: 06 June 2009
ONE of Alex Salmond’s closest economic advisers has said that it is too late for Scotland to be given its geographical share of oil and gas revenues.

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/business/Homemade-produce-getting-us-out.6802665.jp
Homemade produce getting us out of a jam
Published Date: 17 July 2011

“It’s food and drink, not science or technology, that are driving Scotland’s export growth. Our reporter looks at the bread and butter of homegrown success”

For all 3 RAF bases to stay open in Scotland it needs modern day Wallace to come out strongly in their favour which he is sitting on the fence on and has lost one already.

Significant or on the downward trend – but Scotland has no stake.
Revenues for Scotland from oil and gas reserves were lost when Scotland last sensibly voted against an independent Scotland in the late 1970s.
The reserves you speak of are on downward slopes (oil) maybe a little gas left but Scotland owns not a yot of it. Offshore battles in courts will set them back even more to try to claim any revenues from the Oil Giants.
Foreign owned whisky distilleries,
Some salmon,
some beef
some Harris Tweed
and Heather covered Highlands
These revenues alone will not feed the budgetary requirements of the mad modern day Wallace, free prescriptions, free bus travel, free education at University and freedom for it’s people to be drunken louts as of old. No work output or productivity, why you may ask, No Jobs :diablo:
Economically the UK must stand together as an island, regional pride in dress, customs, sports is great but the Union was formed under King James and the Union flag must fly if the recovery from economic doldrums is to hasten.

Poorly researched ignorant and insulting twaddle! :rolleyes:

Now, meanwhile back in the Leuchars thread.

All three stations were strongly hinted at being closed for a long time, though in reality only two would be closed, to those in the know.

Standard Govt tactics, regardless of their colour is to put out an initial false story such as: “All three Scottish RAF stations to close”, when they know only two need to be closed. Then at the 11th hour, anounce in a fanfare that “Lossiemouth has been saved”. Leaving Joe Public and the state controlled media to praise what a fine thing Govt has done in saving the base.

In reality, the significant building programme at Lossie, new control tower, Officers Mess etc. etc. has never flinched over the past year, progressing away as if nothing ever happened.

Lossie was never, never to be closed. The micro climate and geographical location are too handy.

I say, can anybody direct me to the ‘RAF leaving Leuchars thread’? :confused:

I thought it was here somewhere…..

Could have sworn it was.

Here my sympathies are with you

I’m sorry for all the jobs lost and the benefits to the local communities with the closure of Leuchars.

However, as this is the Historic Aviation section of the Flypast Forum I’d like to ponder as to what will become of Phantom aircraft that currently reside there.

It may well spell the end for another couple of these fine aeroplanes as I can’t see anyone in MoD paying to relocate them elsewhere.

It would be especially sad as they are in such fine fettle.

Anon.

Here my sympathies are with you. Instead of battling against foregone conclusions establish plans for re-training, relocation of armed force personnel and as for the supporting community and businesses – yes it’s hard to conceive of relocation but if there is good to be gained by moving so it must. If a service provider/supplier is respected in Leuchars, then Moray will help them settle there to support the enhanced Lossi.
The next few months will see the brave from the naive go their own ways, with the former making the best of a bad situation. Airlines need pilots and trainers and a good air force pilot is gold dust. UCAVS will need pilots in safe bunkers. Mechanics will be required to service aircraft.
Study and re-train and the excellent discipline of being in the forces will make anyone leaving or shed able to cope with an otherwise undisciplined work ethic lacking lay society.
My good wishes are for the future of every one at Leuchars displaced or not displaced in the future. Thank you for being there and hope you will be part of the RAF or society where ever you move to.

I say, can anybody direct me to the ‘RAF leaving Leuchars thread’? :confused:

Significant or on the downward trend – but Scotland has no stake

Significant or on the downward trend – but Scotland has no stake.
Revenues for Scotland from oil and gas reserves were lost when Scotland last sensibly voted against an independent Scotland in the late 1970s.
The reserves you speak of are on downward slopes (oil) maybe a little gas left but Scotland owns not a yot of it. Offshore battles in courts will set them back even more to try to claim any revenues from the Oil Giants.
Foreign owned whisky distilleries,
Some salmon,
some beef
some Harris Tweed
and Heather covered Highlands
These revenues alone will not feed the budgetary requirements of the mad modern day Wallace, free prescriptions, free bus travel, free education at University and freedom for it’s people to be drunken louts as of old. No work output or productivity, why you may ask, No Jobs :diablo:
Economically the UK must stand together as an island, regional pride in dress, customs, sports is great but the Union was formed under King James and the Union flag must fly if the recovery from economic doldrums is to hasten.

Did you forget about Scotlands Oil reserves?

Oh, **** off with that oft used excuse. It is a finite resource, not a money tree!