RAF personnel records from MoD

Legislation and Records

Slight thread creep warning.

A recent thread here looked at ABH and the TNA as well as museums and how they are reacting to requests.

May be of interest to those looking for an answer – or not

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=114632

A Met wallah must have heard this phrase countless times in his service career.

Haven’t you read the ammendments to the S.O.s on the clipboard?

In this case a new model scheme of publication was released in 2009 for Local and Central Gov.

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/FreedomOfInformation/PublicationScheme/AboutPublicationScheme/

The MoD scheme details AHB/RAF holdings and how they are handled.

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/CBECA978-035F-4A75-930A-394CDC111479/0/mod_ps_guide_to_information_nov09.pdf

Tunbridge Well was the paper age now with the internet and email it’s been relocated on cost grounds to GCHQ.

Regards
Ross

Ross is to be thanked for laying down, in sensible English, what AHB/MoD Disclosures WILL, and/or WILL NOT, do. That is not the problem.
The problem is that what they said they WILL do they are, now, apparently, no longer doing.
As I understand it there is, apparently, a body of evidence accruing which indicates “They” have changed the way in which they operate/disclose. I have no up-to-date experience of this problem and, therefore, must rely upon others who have.
I was not aware that there had been any Parliamentary legislation which significantly altered the conditions of DPA/FoI. Therefore one has to assume that some Mandarin (or Minion) has altered the conditions in accordance with the usual “hidden agenda” – not entirely unknown!!
All a number of members (of several Fora) want to know is “what were the changes to those conditions?”, who authorised them?, and were they ‘legal’ under the terms of DPA/FoI? And what was/is that Hidden Agenda?
If we know what the Rules actually are (and how they are interpreted) then we can work within those parameters.
HTH
Resmoroh

PS Ross, “Disgusted” actually lives in Tunbridge Wells (LoL!). Just a matter of technical accuracy!!

Hi Cees,

Not directly from the MoD records. Most RAAF files contain the “escape” picture as well as in uniform on entry but not MoD as it was not part of the original Form 280 package and so not included in the Form 543 retained as the CAS section index.

For details of Form 280 content and use:
http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?11869-Form-280-Certificate-of-Service-Airman&

However the info on the Form 543 wrapper sent by MoD (as per Raw details) can sometimes be used to pick up on a unit that has named intake group photos in the ORBs at The National Archives eg 7 B&GS (early), No.60 OTU, No.27 OTU etc.

A bit of pot luck but better than nothing.

Regards
Ross

Ross and others,

Very interesting thread, thanks.

Are there any possibilties to get photographs of aircrew
in a similar fashion?

Cees

Before firing off “Disgusted of Cheltenham” emails and FoI take a bit of time to actually read what the AHB/MoD Disclosures have publically said they will and will not do.

Records of Service

The Air Historical Branch does not hold Records of Service although we can assist members of the public with understanding of the content of RAF Records of Service.

The Ministry of Defence (MOD) is the custodian of the Records of Service of Service personnel until they are opened to general public access at The National Archives. Subject to the payment of a search fee of £30 per record and provision of a death certificate (except where death was in service), certain information can be provided from these records on request under the MOD’s publication scheme. The scheme allows for information in these records to be exempt from the general provisions of the Freedom of Information Act by virtue of section 21(1) of the Act (Information accessible to an applicant by other means).

Under the scheme, and in recognition of the duty of care owed to the family of the deceased subject, for a period of 25 years following the date of death of the subject and without the consent of the Next of Kin, MOD will disclose only:

■Surname
■Forename
■Rank
■Service number
■Regiment/Corps
■Place of birth
■Age
■Date of birth
■Date of death where this occurred in Service
■Date an individual joined the Service
■Date of leaving the Service
■Good conduct medals (i.e. Long Service and Good Conduct Medal (LS&GCM))
■Any orders of chivalry and gallantry medals (decorations of valour) awarded, some of which may have been announced in the London Gazette.

After this period, and if it is held, in addition MOD will disclose without the requirement for Next of Kin consent: the units in which he/she served; the dates of this service and the locations of those units; the ranks in which the service was carried out and details of WWII campaign medals.

The search fee of £30 will be waived for requests from those who were the spouse or civil partner of the subject at the time of death (or parent if there was no spouse or civil partner).

Where the consent of the immediate next of kin has been given for its release to a third party, the 25 year threshold will not apply allowing the release of all the information available under the publication scheme at any time, subject to the payment of a search fee of £30 per record and the provision of a death certificate (except where death was in service).

So FoI will be met with answer – exempt.

Was your request for details on Raw upto 25 years after death?
Was request for details on Raw upto 25 year after death with consent of NOK for release to third party?

If not the above case, then I cannot see any heavy deletion in the chronology of units by MoD.

They said they will provide:
the units in which he/she served; the dates of this service and the locations of those units; the ranks in which the service was carried out and details of WWII campaign medals.

All I can see missing is campaign medals as the locations of units can be found from other published sources.

By all means send your emails if they have not done what they have committed to but give them a break if they have not done what want regardless.

Regards
Ross

Info from MOD

Last year I requested the service record of S/L Tony RAW DFC AFC in connection with a book I was undertaking with Norman Franks titled ‘Raw Courage’ that revolves around four pilot brothers serving in the RAF. Attached is a copy I received from the MOD (costing £30) on Tony Raw’s record.

It might be worth trying an FoI request to see if you could get any illumination. But if they are censoring the service records, even back to WW2, I don’t hold out too much hope that it would reveal anything.

Moggy

Something does not quite fit together here? If ‘They’ are trying to stop people asking for this information then is it reasonable to suggest that it is largely on the grounds of cost? The fewer people who ask for this info then the fewer people will have to be employed to copy/send it?
But I would think that it takes considerably more time/effort to take the black relt-tipped pen to whole chunks of the record before copying/sending. Or is there an extra charge for carrying out the redaction?
Can someone please enlighten me?
HTH
Resmoroh

That is so sad. His service record is my most tangible link with my late Father and his wartime RAF experiences.

Moggy

MOD Records

The MOD has stopped sending the colour copies and most of the info is heavily redacted if you are not NOK. They are trying to stop people asking for this information.

PDC: Later 5PDU Innsworth Personnel Despatch Unit

Brilliant, thanks for that. Some of the mystery is resolved.

I also managed to track down 102 PDC. This was at Cardington and was a Personnel Despatch Centre – the last stop before demob.

Moggy

http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?11925-Service-records-notations-HH

Hi Paul,

The reason column of Form 543a can contain several initials the most common found are

H
HH
F
A
R
P

It is the sequence as well as the Initial that is important and they all denote who ‘owns’ the airman.

First is H and F. This is a throwback from when the RFC/RNAS were joined in 1918. The RAF was split into Home Establishment (HE) and Field Force (F) with Field Force being anything outside British shores.

The abbreviation used to be HE for Home Establishment but this was shortened to H.

After Recruit Centre the next posting for a UK entrant was normally assigned as H which gave his ownership as Home Establishment and not available for posting overseas without consent of Home Establishment.

Having had this annotation made it was not normally repeated until a change of establishment was made i.e. to F for Field and ownership changed to overseas establishment. Again the bod could not be posted home without Field Establishment permission. For entrants to overseas units then they would be given initial reason of F.

Now for HH, A, P, and R
These denote which unit owns the airman in the respective establishment.

An airman could be Posted (P) to a unit as one of two things. either IE or IR.

IE – Initial Establishment/Equipment. This means he was part of the established strength of the unit and could be posted within the denoted Home or Field Force at the whim of the Officer Commanding the posted unit.

IR – Immediate Reserve. This means he was a casualty replacement which could only be used by the Officer Commanding (no other units had dibs!) and had to be kept employed/trained by the unit. Sometimes this is also shown as (R)

HH this is the Command reserve or Headquarters Holding. It means that the man does not make up the Estabishment of the Unit but is supernumary and owned by Headquarters as an area reserve. Officer Commanding a unit cannot post this man but must ensure that they are fully trained, supported and equipped ready to be shipped off elsewhere if needed.

Where an airman needs to leave the unit for training at a specialist site then he is Attached (A). This means he is still owned by the previous unit and is part of its estabishment.

Now finally to complete the reasons an airman could be classed as Non Effective (NE) because of illness, detention etc and thus removed from the unit estabishment count allowing numbers to be made up to Establishment with IR bods.

Ross

OK let’s try. My main problem is movement reasons

On the reverse of my Dad’s record, he was an M/T Driver, his moves are listed as:

From the reserve to Upper Heyford, the reason for the move was given as ‘HH’

From there to 12 School of Technical Training (Which I think was Melksham) the reason was ‘H’

Then all subsequent moves including to Penhold in Canada had no reasons

Coming back home to Little Staughton ‘C’

Little Staughton to 8 School of Technical Training, RAF Weeton Lancashire, after the European war was over was ‘D24’

Then a move to 13 MY (??) reason ‘D2F’

Then a final move to 102 PDC (Pre Demob Centre ? ? ) was ‘A’

Any thoughts or insight?

Moggy

Some of us may be able to help you with the abbreviations if you get that far.

I obtained my uncles service record some 9 years ago and as Moggy says you have to have consent or be NoK. It is just a colour photocopy of both sides of F543 Record of Service. (Don’t know about the [A])

My uncle was lost without trace 12 Feb 1942 whilst flying in Hampdens of 49Sqn. I got a full copy.

Unfortunately with recent changes to legislation you may find a great deal blanked out! If you are not from a service background, be ready for a mass of abbreviations. It will also cost you £30 @ 2011 prices.

Veterans’ site is at: http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/WhatWeDo/Personnel/ServiceRecords/

My memory is a little hazy on this but ISTR that to get the actual service records you needed to be NoK, or have written permission of somebody pretty close.

If you do have permission you are given a colour photocopy of their form 534A

Moggy

RAF Persnal Records

If you go to the Veterans Web site it will give you all the details on obtaining a copy of a persons records. Best of Luck