RAF Record Cards

KH661

Mike,
The AirBritain serial numbers books show KH661 was delivered between September ’44 & January ’45 as a Mustang Mk 1V-it served with 442 Sqd RCAF & 19 Sqd RAF before being struck off charge on 18th February 1946. Airlife publications book Lend-Lease aircraft in WW11 by Arthur PEARCY shows KH661 as one of a batch of 30 P51Ds in contract AC-40063.These 30 aircraft carried RAF serials KH641-KH670 with US serials 44-11168-to 11187 & 44-11253 to 11262.

Hope this is some help.

Bigmal

Wow! Firehose effect! 😉 Thanks for all of the replies. Apparently I should should check back on my postings more often. In general I have trouble keeping up with the pace of postings on this board.

Since JDK has asked… I am doing some research on the Vintage Wings of Canada Mustang, RCAF s/n 9575. I have a copy of the RCAF record card and the USAAF record card. It appears from the USAAF record card that the airframe made the trip across the pond to the UK, but was immediately turned around to return to the U.S. as the war in Europe ended as the same time it arrived. It is POSSIBLE from what I was reading on the card the airframe was intended for RAF service under lend-lease. All of this is yet to be confirmed, and is based on the interpretation of a few experts. Hopefully the USAF Historical Office will be able to help confirm.

So what am I looking for? (I hear you ask)

I would like to find any records that may confirm, or reject the theory this airframe was intended for lend-lease. I don’t know where to start. Record cards are not likely to be of any help here.

I would also like to obtain copies of record cards of all types for RAF Mustang KH661. I’ll reread your posts here carefully and deside on which route I am going to take.

Thanks again for all the advice. It is very much appreciated.

Mike

Thanks Don, I was working from memory of seeing the book, and a quick internet search – wrong title! Although OP, there are copies out there if it’s something you want.

Mike, care to share what you are after?

For the record I’d like to say I’ve had enormous help from very generous forum members here, who’ve found or known stuff I’d never have tracked down myself, and been very happy to help. It can’t hurt to ask!

Cheers

RAF Record Cards

Hi,

I can only really add what others have said here in that one of the best places to start is the RAF Museum. Although I haven’t started hitting the aircraft record cards yet (I’m sure this is about to change over the next few months, so I’m taking notes here too!), they have been more than helpful to us with airfield research. One thing I have found, especially when making an e-mail/postal enquiry is not to expect a result by return of post! Needless to say, the research department at Hendon is a very busy place.

Also, I noticed someone mentioned further up the thread that you have to specific about what you require. We foudn this out the hard way; in asking for ‘everything thay had’ on Snaith, an armfull of plans arrived to the tune of thirty-two quid! Sometimes the quality can be a little hit and miss, too – my Waltham plans have seen better days! That notwithstanding, it is a superb resource and we’d be stuffed without it!

There are other ‘Air’ documents which may be of use (all of these are held at the National Archives, Kew):

Air 10/3836 R.A.F. Aircraft Call Signs: Home (1949)

Air 10/3961 Location of Units in the Royal Air Force July 1944-Dec. 1944 Issue 46-51

Air 10/4039 Royal Air Force airfields and flying boat bases in the United Kingdom, Iceland, Malta and Gibraltar: 2nd Edition (1946)

Air 20/2022 Aircraft strength detailed statements 1939 Sept.-1945 Aug.

Air 20/2023 Squadrons: summary by initial equipment and class of aircraft
1939 Jan.-1945 May

You could spend ages on TNA’s web site just going through titles! Good luck with the research.

I know where to find historical record cards for the USAF, USN and RCAF. I don’t know were to obtain copies of record cards for former RAF aircraft and similar information. Could someone please provide me with some tips?

mike, I’d suggest saying a bit more about what you are after, and you’ll get more precise and thus more helpful advice.

I’d agree with TT, that the RAF Museum archives are excellent in my experience, although I’ve always visited (with an appointment).

Beware of looking for Fleet Air Arm (Royal Navy) records – I don’t know, but some of that kind of data, in an excellent archive is held at the Fleet Air Arm at Yeovilton.

Much of the data has been published by Air Britain Historians, who do some excellent books of numbers, if that’s what you need. Better to be a member, as the books are cheaper that way.

The National Archives (TNA) used to be The Public Record Office, until a second archive was absorbed. It’s no-longer correct to refer to the Public Record Office, or PRO, but many do – you’ll hit the term sooner or later.

If you are generally interested, rather than wanting a just fact or two, TNA publish a book:

“RAF Records in the PRO (Public Record Office Readers Guide)”
Simon Fowler, Peter Elliott, Roy Conyers Nesbit, Christina Goulter

“Designed for beginners, this is a guide to the collections of aviation records in the Public Record Office. Subjects covered include: aircraft and airships; operational records; organization of the air services; records of individuals; women in the RAF and Air Transport Auxilary; honours and awards; crashes and casualties; and photographic reconnaissance. The records date from the origins of military flying in Britain (1900) to 1964.”

As at least one of the authors works for the RAF Museum, I’m sure it’s realistic in what’s NOT at the PRO, but at the RAFM.

If you plan on visiting TNA/PRO, get prepared by the website, take a tour (about 1/2 hour) an expect your first visit to be an overwhelming disaster; after that it gets easier, but if you are visiting for a few days it’s VERY easy to over-estimate what you’ll try to achieve. Now you can (with permission) use a digital cameras to copy (some) paper records. At the RAFM they’ll help you. TNA’s ‘self-service’!

Good luck.

Mike

To summarise the info given above (and add a bit!):

Air Ministry Forms 78 – Aircraft Movement Cards – one or more cards per airframe, giving very brief details of that airframe’s movement between units. Original cards held by MOD Air Historical Branch, with microfilmed copies held at the RAF Museum, Hendon. The Museum also holds microfilms of similar cards generated by successive ministries (Aircraft Production, Supply, Aviation, Technology) for military aircraft used by trials units and civilian contractors. I have to agree with TT (above), the handwriting is difficult to decipher and the jargon sometimes meaningless, but then, that’s what research is all about!

Air Ministry Forms 1180 – Accident Record Cards – one per accident/incident. Held as per the F.78, but by no means a complete set, many have been lost.

Form 540 – Operations Record Book (the formal diary of a unit or formation) and Form 541 – Detail of Work Carried Out (details of operations, sorties, exercises etc) – these are all held at the National Archive (a.k.a the Public Record Office) at Kew. Normally F.540 and 541 are grouped together by month, and are catalogued under:

AIR27 – Squadrons – held on microfilm
AIR28 – Stations – held as original documents
AIR29 – Other units (Flights, Trainings Schools etc) – held as original documents.

The Museum seems to be happy to send a small number of prints from microfilm if you know what you want. Not quite so easy with the F.540/541 at Kew, because although prints from microfilm can be done, at a price, how do you get to know what you want ? Not easy to visit, especially if your e-mail suffix is .ca.

Both Museum and Archive will sell copies of the microfilms (at least they certainly used to) but they are not cheap! But beware, if you do follow that route, the Museum microfilms are 16 mm and the Archive microfilms 35 mm. It’s never easy!

A quick Google for RAF Museum, National Archive and MOD AHB should provide up-to-date addresses. Certainly the Museum guys and gals are very helpful.

Regards

Allan

I would simply advise writing to RAFM Hendon – they are generally very helpful (cue slagging off from other researchers – I will qualify – they are very helpful in MY experience over the last 15 years) – what you require is the ‘aircraft movement card’ – simply quote the serial number and provide as much gen as you have and they will usually send you a photocopy of the movement card – if they are in a good mood they may help you by deciphering it – oftentimes the handwriting is illegible….

TT

Check out Steve Lloyd ( Gp Capt retd) at AHB. N.B. a lot of stuff had been ransacked by so called “researchers”

Squadron F541 at Kew, however, and are not the loss cards there as well? Did not know that AHB hold records past declassification dates, Cheers for that info.

Second time half right Bigvern. Nothing at Kew, microfilm copies at RAFM, Hendon, originals held by AHB, Bentley priory.

RAF Museum Hendon

UK National Archives at Kew