RAF W.W.II colour change

Just to add a few thoughts to the debate on black/white undersurfaces,I’d always thought it was done to identify the aircraft as friendly,just like the later D-Day stripes. IIRC,the scheme was replaced by black and white stripes in time for the Dieppe raid in 1942. Can’t rememebr where I read this,it was a few years ago now.
Adding to Mark12’s reference to Spits in 1941 with the Night & White scheme,I’ve seen some pics of Hurricanes in N Africa and Malta around the same time with the same scheme. BBMF’s PZ865 was painted up in just such a scheme a few years ago…

Thanks Mark. Very comprehensive as usual.

I guess it would take some weeks to comply with such an order decreeing a colour change like that. After all, each station would only have so many spray guns available, plus the paint would have to be sourced, and some aircraft would be under servicing or too active to pin down for a repaint. I’d think it’s be some weeks to have all the hundreds of fighters of the RAF changed, no matter how quickly each individual aircraft may have been resprayed. So I guess there were Night/White aircraft in the BofB then.

Another query… When did Fighter Command change from the Battle of France style black/white undersides to the duck egg blue undersides?

Dave,

According to my trusty reference, Night and White under surfaces were replaced by Sky (more of a duck egg green) from 6 June 1940 on service aircraft and 11 June on production aircraft. No underwing roundels to be applied at this time.

This is not the whole story as from between 27 November 1940 and 22 April 1941, Fighter Command Spitfires carried a black port wing undersurface with ‘A’ type roundels, the port one of which, was further outlined in yellow. Roundel size was various.

For those particularly interested in this field look out for ‘Camouflage & Markings Supermarine Spitfire RAF Northern Europe 1936-45’. It appears on ebay with regularity. I have seen it a couple of dozen times.

Mark

Cheers Laurie

Another query… When did Fighter Command change from the Battle of France style balck/white undersides to the duck egg blue undersides? Did any aircraft actually fly in the Battle of Britain with the black/white paint still applied? Or were all surviving aircraft repainted by then?

Also, what was the purpose of the black/white scheme? Was it ID to stop the French gunners shooting them down? (if so, it didn’t work in Bill Kain’s case!)

Dave,

The black and white undersurface scheme was actually introduced in September 1938. It was then decreed that the undersurface of the starboard wing would be painted white and the port undersurface would be black. In reality though, there were many variations of this. There is even evidence of a Spitfire having silver port undersurface. Some aircraft had silver on the bottom engine cowlings and on the rear fuselage.

The change to ‘Duck Egg Green/Blue’ started around May 1940, when a new undersurface camouflage scheme was announced. Initially, again, some aircraft had silver , or even pale/dark blue, applied. By the start of the BoB, most fighter aircraft had adopted this new scheme.

BR

Laurie.

Another query… When did Fighter Command change from the Battle of France style balck/white undersides to the duck egg blue undersides? Did any aircraft actually fly in the Battle of Britain with the black/white paint still applied? Or were all surviving aircraft repainted by then?

Also, what was the purpose of the black/white scheme? Was it ID to stop the French gunners shooting them down? (if so, it didn’t work in Bill Kain’s case!)

Thanks folks.

Spellink eh, Marque?

One of THOSE questions.

When did the RAF change from Green/Brown upper colours to Green/Grey?

And why?

James,

Michael J F Bowyer, in his book “Fighting Colours”, puts the change during mid-1941. He says his first sighting was of 3 No. 56 Sqn Hurricane II’s flying into Duxford on 26 May 1941 to carry out a 3 day experiment with ‘camouflage for over-water purposes’.

He lists 2 of those which he saw on the second day of the experiment, Z2586/US-P and Z2767/US-W, as sporting an 3-tone grey finish. He goes on to say the there was a very dark shade of grey where once the green had been, the brown was replaced by a dark shade of grey and the undersurfaces were also a dark shade of grey. He mentions that these looked very strange standing next to a 310 Sqn machine in the green-brown-sky finish.

He mentions a little later that Hawkers produced drawings on 24 July 1941 with a new style of camouflage, Ocean Grey/Dark Green upper surfaces, with Medium Sea Grey undersides.

Later in the same chapter, he indicates that September 1941 was the time when the changes were made throughout the Service.

Hope that helps a little.

BR

Laurie.

Your two photos.

The photo on the right shows DP845 with the dark spinner and the non standard clip wing caps.

The photo on the left shows MB882. This may or may not be the the same aircraft as the Janes front cover tinted front view. I do not have the book to hand, only the ‘low res’ Amazon image, but I would study it to see if it has that light area at the port wing leading edge fillet. Something slightly odd there with the paint. If it has that then the cover short will be MB882 beyond reasonable doubt, if not then more probably it is MB878.

Who has a copy of the book?

Mark

I’ve got the book here – on the leading edge of the port wing, at the root, there is indeed a lighter patch.

Mark12 – do you mean the photos I’ve just posted? :confused:

Your two photos.

The photo on the right shows DP845 with the dark spinner and the non standard clip wing caps.

The photo on the left shows MB882. This may or may not be the the same aircraft as the Janes front cover tinted front view. I do not have the book to hand, only the ‘low res’ Amazon image, but I would study it to see if it has that light area at the port wing leading edge fillet. Something slightly odd there with the paint. If it has that then the cover short will be MB882 beyond reasonable doubt, if not then more probably it is MB878.

Who has a copy of the book?

Mark

Mark12 – do you mean the photos I’ve just posted? :confused:

Not DP845 in my view, as when clipped it had non standard proto wing caps and a dark coloured spinner.

It might be MB882 which was photographed air to air prior to wearing its EB-B codes of 41 Squadron.

It is however more likely to be MB878, a trials aircraft based at Boscombe Down for some six months for which there are a number of shots from various angles.

The colour tinting to the photograph is incorrect.

Mark

Here’s that pic (Charles E. Brown photo)

Begging your pardon, it’s MB882 😮

The second shot (posted by Dan Johnson, Charles E Brown photo?) is of DP845.

This is the one i have;

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0517679647/102-8666641-6901705?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance

The caption says it is a Mk XII, and the photo is from the IWM.

I know the book – could the cover photo be a black and white Charles E. Brown photo which was wrongly colourised (or tinted, for the non-digital era)?

Also – DP845 was the (first?) prototype for the Mark XII (having been the Mark IV or something prototype – this is where we need Mark12’s touch) so the theatre markings etc may not have been standard. (?)

Rob / Kansan

Artistic licence? Or a XII? – Nermal

I also have that book. A Spitfire XII, IIRC DP845, but it should be DG/OG/MSG with sky(?) spinner and theatre band.

Was thinking this earlier actually, i (well my dad) has a copy of ‘Janes combat aircraft of WWII’ and on the front is a griffon engined, clipped wing Spitfire with green/brown upper colours, not sure if this is a black and white photo coloured in or not.

Artistic licence? Or a XII? – Nermal

One of THOSE questions.

When did the RAF change from Green/Brown upper colours to Green/Grey?

And why?

I just ‘draged’ this up from my Spitfire library 🙂 :-

15th August 1941.

Mark

One of THOSE questions.

When did the RAF change from Green/Brown upper colours to Green/Grey?

And why?

ooh – a colour police question

Temperate Land Scheme (DE/DG/whatever) to Day Fighter Scheme DG/OG/MSG)- for day fighters in NW Europe only = sometime during mid 1941

why – because the DG/DE scheme was too “dark” at higher altitudes – the mixed grey or Ocean grey lightened the scheme

seems to be a balance between camouflage at low level or on the ground (eg Bombers which stayed TLS plus Night u/s) and camouflage at altitude

Was thinking this earlier actually, i (well my dad) has a copy of ‘Janes combat aircraft of WWII’ and on the front is a griffon engined, clipped wing Spitfire with green/brown upper colours, not sure if this is a black and white photo coloured in or not.

I think they changed during 1941, however Bomber Command aircraft were mostly brown/green upper colours for the rest of the war, unless it was coastal command.

Edit – found this on the internet, just as i thought!

The brown and green camouflage saw the RAF through the Battle of Britain and into1941. With them now taking the fight to the enemy, and having to cross the Channel or North Sea to do it, the brown part of the camouflage stood out against the sea. So it was changed to dark grey, a scheme of grey and green being equally good over land or sea.

From http://freespace.virgin.net/john.dell/spitmark.htm