RAF wants RNto cancel carriers

Of course you are right. One has to be careful – but I just love a little speculation (that’s what a forum is for, isn’t it? keeping things open and out of the box), and I see the offload scenario as pretty realistic. There are simply too many airframes and not enough quids in the system. Having the big three in EU-land (FRG, FRA, UK) operate 150 frontline fast jets each is a realistic future scenario in my mind.

Concerning those others – España and Deutschland: It’s not like either of them has a lot of money left for toys. Spain has around 80 Hornets and F1 in its frontline units and I see that they might bitch about reduced numbers and warping the workshare agreement cause they’ll take their full share – but hey! let them have more 400M work and they’ll be fine.
But Germany? They might also have 20 or so they could offload to non-consortium states. The Arabs might go for the full 72, and India is also not yet decided, for example. Room for compromises, in my mind.

Money is just so thight now, and it will become even tighter till fall, that everybody will be just too happy to reduce defense related expenditures. I can also dream up a scenario where EADS will be forced to count the 400M delay against a drop in total Eurofighter numbers, as part of some penalty.

Oh, I see.

Being honest, the idea of using the A400M fiasco has a “discussion leverage” never crossed my mind! It´s an interesting idea… If that happened BAE Systems would probably demand Tom Enders head on a plate! :diablo:

Cheers

It is funny in all of this that the politicians dont seem to ever learn the lessons of history inc the history of poor procurement.

curlyboy

Neither does its citizens……….:eek: Which, is the bigger problem!

It is funny in all of this that the politicians dont seem to ever learn the lessons of history inc the history of poor procurement.

curlyboy

Text taken from an article in AW, by Andy Nativi and Douglas Barrie.
Now i am aware that Douglas Barrie has some wonderful connections in the British MOD, and he is one of the best informed journos (along with Jon Lake and a few others) about the entire Eurofighter Program… BUT just two months ago the British “Saudi offloading scenario” was being flat out refused by the Germans and the Spaniards.
What has happened in the last month and a half?
I would take caution before something official cames out, the latest news indicates that the four partners are discussing 112 fighters for the Tranche 3a and the problems that the British MOD his having with HM Treasury are well known. IF the British MOD had been sucessfull with it´s bid to convince it´s partners that the offload of almost two thirds of this “T3A” order to the Saudis was a good thing, i would imagine that by now the production contract would already been signed.

Of course you are right. One has to be careful – but I just love a little speculation (that’s what a forum is for, isn’t it? keeping things open and out of the box), and I see the offload scenario as pretty realistic. There are simply too many airframes and not enough quids in the system. Having the big three in EU-land (FRG, FRA, UK) operate 150 frontline fast jets each is a realistic future scenario in my mind.

Concerning those others – España and Deutschland: It’s not like either of them has a lot of money left for toys. Spain has around 80 Hornets and F1 in its frontline units and I see that they might bitch about reduced numbers and warping the workshare agreement cause they’ll take their full share – but hey! let them have more 400M work and they’ll be fine.
But Germany? They might also have 20 or so they could offload to non-consortium states. The Arabs might go for the full 72, and India is also not yet decided, for example. Room for compromises, in my mind.

Money is just so thight now, and it will become even tighter till fall, that everybody will be just too happy to reduce defense related expenditures. I can also dream up a scenario where EADS will be forced to count the 400M delay against a drop in total Eurofighter numbers, as part of some penalty.

“In a notable concession, the three other nations have also agreed to let the UK count part of an earlier export order to Saudi Arabia towards its quota, thereby cutting down the number it needs to pay for now from 40 to 16 jets.”

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1395175&postcount=38

No.2 is hoped to be Oman.

Text taken from an article in AW, by Andy Nativi and Douglas Barrie.
Now i am aware that Douglas Barrie has some wonderful connections in the British MOD, and he is one of the best informed journos (along with Jon Lake and a few others) about the entire Eurofighter Program… BUT just two months ago the British “Saudi offloading scenario” was being flat out refused by the Germans and the Spaniards.
What has happened in the last month and a half?
I would take caution before something official cames out, the latest news indicates that the four partners are discussing 112 fighters for the Tranche 3a and the problems that the British MOD his having with HM Treasury are well known. IF the British MOD had been sucessfull with it´s bid to convince it´s partners that the offload of almost two thirds of this “T3A” order to the Saudis was a good thing, i would imagine that by now the production contract would already been signed.

WRONG, it just means that the 24 tranche 2 slots we already spent money on and then handed to the saudi’s have been nudged over into tranche 3 at no mextra cost, we are still down for 232 airframes

It was my understanding that the Tranche 3 order for the UK. Was broken down into two parts. So, the UK would order and pay half now. To be followed by the second half. In another two to three years……..

BTW I was not referring to the Saudi order for Tranche 2 Typhoons. Nor, did I imply that the UK sold any of its Typhoons to the Saudi’s. Different matter all together……..;)

Let’s not forget the 40 (16?) would be just half of the Tranche 3 batch that the UK would be required to purchase. Of course if Oman bought a number of aircraft that could be scaled back?:confused:

WRONG, it just means that the 24 tranche 2 slots we already spent money on and then handed to the saudi’s have been nudged over into tranche 3 at no mextra cost, we are still down for 232 airframes

“In a notable concession, the three other nations have also agreed to let the UK count part of an earlier export order to Saudi Arabia towards its quota, thereby cutting down the number it needs to pay for now from 40 to 16 jets.”

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1395175&postcount=38

No.2 is hoped to be Oman.

Let’s not forget the 40 (16?) would be just half of the Tranche 3 batch that the UK would be required to purchase. Of course if Oman bought a number of aircraft that could be scaled back?:confused:

…
What on earth are you on about? Spend so little? The UK has the second largest defence budget of any nation on the planet! …
The only nation that spends more is the US, who spend more than the next FORTY FIVE nations combined!….

Not if you count everything either Russia or China spends. In real terms, we’re almost certainly fourth, and part of the pack, not out there with the USA.

“In a notable concession, the three other nations have also agreed to let the UK count part of an earlier export order to Saudi Arabia towards its quota, thereby cutting down the number it needs to pay for now from 40 to 16 jets.”

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1395175&postcount=38

No.2 is hoped to be Oman.

Not what you said. You said that the RAF had sold 40 of its Typhoons to the Arabs. The FT has reported (uncomfirmed) that the RAF has been allowed to count 24 as yet unbuilt aircraft against its quota of an as yet unordered batch of aircraft. It does not make clear whether this represents a postponement, or cancellation, of RAF purchases, but the words “the number it needs to pay for now” hint at the former.

Distiller

The RAF didn´t sold 40+ Tiffies to the Arabs…
Untill now, there´s not one single confirmation that from the entire British 232 Typhoon force, part will be disposed/sold/traded “to the Arabs”. And yes i am aware of the several Oman/Saudi stories that are current in the International press. Quite recently the “offloading Saudi scenario” (count the first 24 Saudi Phoons has part of the RAF order) was being discarded with some very strong words in… Madrid. Something like “these rules (contractual clauses) were imposed BY THE BRITISH, so dont even think of it…”
The British might, or might not come to sell/offload part of their Typhoon fleet to “the Arabs”, but for now, the original plan, 138 front line fighters on seven active sqns, a OCU and the Falklands detach, still stands.

“In a notable concession, the three other nations have also agreed to let the UK count part of an earlier export order to Saudi Arabia towards its quota, thereby cutting down the number it needs to pay for now from 40 to 16 jets.”

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1395175&postcount=38

No.2 is hoped to be Oman.

Someone with reason it seems at last

It would seem that there are certain elements that have little idea what they are talking about, Enabarbus::( for one would seem to know only book stuff and not the real story, much of the Defence budget over the years (billions in cancelled projects to start with) has been wasted and the hyper inflated prices we pay for gear just goes to show how little we actually get. All the UORs that are now being purchased to save a little Top Brass face (UK Gov also) should have already been there then many less body bangs would be coming home, I nkow becasue I have sent them. Try being at the front line then you will think differently. As for the Ground attack capability for the SHAR there ware many additional upgrades due which would have given all the stuff needed + the gun action so dearly needed which the RAF GR7/9 cannot give to those on the front line. Jonesy is right as for what is being dropped in Afghan then the SHar would be doing just fine.

Money is fine but it is where it is spent that truely matters and the last few years is has been wasted on stuff on flash rather than true war fighting capability. If we wish a policy then you have to pay for it, we are not doing that at present. Less infighting and lets get the job done but with no half measures.:mad:

A post with an oddly familiar ring to it. Much the same as another poster recently, apparently, departed.

Whether or not the UK has the highest defence spend after the US is a debateable point. Chinese expenditure being difficult to quantify in any wholly accurate sense. Media reports indicating $70bn for 09 being commonplace though.

All this when there has never been less of a formed military threat to the UK in history.

Which is a meaningless soundbyte at best and an attempt to deliberately mislead at worst. The military capability of the UK is defined by its foreign policy and alliance commitments and not solely to the defence of the home islands.

You are SO deluded in your opinion of the SHAR that it is almost laughable!.It’s ability to deliver precision guided munitions was virtually nil and it’s performance in academic range exercises in comparison with the RAF has absolutely NO relevance to it’s ability to deliver CAS in theatres such as Iraq and Afghanistan where it would be a totally inept performer compared to the aircraft currently in use.

Perhaps, before accusing others of delusion, you should check the combat loads that GR Harriers operating out of Kandahar in support of Op Herrick typically fly. A recce pod and a 500lb LGB would’ve been quite within FA2’s abilities….plus the SHAR wouldve brought a useful strafing capability that was glaringly missing from the GRs offerings.

FA2 had issues with h’n’h environments, as did Jag GR3, and the GR’s were definitely the correct platform for that one specific environment. The swingrole capability set of the FA2 made it the correct choice for routine embarkation on CVS’s though.

Milwise,

What say I?

What on earth are you on about? Spend so little? The UK has the second largest defence budget of any nation on the planet! We spend £37billion plus a billion a year in UOR funding from the treasury reserve fund.
The only nation that spends more is the US, who spend more than the next FORTY FIVE nations combined!

All this when there has never been less of a formed military threat to the UK in history.

You are SO deluded in your opinion of the SHAR that it is almost laughable!
It’s ability to deliver precision guided munitions was virtually nil and it’s performance in academic range exercises in comparison with the RAF has absolutely NO relevance to it’s ability to deliver CAS in theatres such as Iraq and Afghanistan where it would be a totally inept performer compared to the aircraft currently in use.

You jump ship mate. Go off to these other nations with their much smaller defence budgets, much smaller less effective militaries and who are all suffering similar force reductions or in most cases much more severe reductions in numbers and capability.

RAF WHAT FOR WE NEED THEM?

Here we go again, with the in fighting and the Top Brass dont really have a clue to what we need or dont, all those flash fighters in a hanger at the cost they cost when they should be out there doing the bizz. For the cost of a couple of them we would still have the SHARs which really when it came down to it kicked ass was a war proven design and true multi role as it regularly proved it could drop bombs better than anything in the RAF, 800 NAS proved it before loosing th last true Naval figher we had. What is really needed though is not infighting but the joining of hands across the 3 services and tell the UK Gov, to cough up the readies if they want to play on the big stage, we spend so little of the GDP that I am ashamed amongst many who have served to call myself a Brit, the lads and lasses are the best so lets give them the tools in the numbers needed to defend our freedoms that we are so freely giving away without looking. It may be time to jump ship and go to better and more secure lands like so many Brits are doing year on year.

What say you?:(

Sorry, to my UK Friends. Yet, I have lost all respect for the RAF Leadership….:mad:

We were many years ahead of you with that descision, theres no reason to feel sorry for it!

PS: it’s realisation that you are feeling not guilt

Quite right, we didn’t sell aircraft, we sold production slots, allowing the saudi’s to get their birds early, we are still down for our full allotment of 232.

😀

Sorry, to my UK Friends. Yet, I have lost all respect for the RAF Leadership….:mad:

Distiller

The RAF didn´t sold 40+ Tiffies to the Arabs…
Untill now, there´s not one single confirmation that from the entire British 232 Typhoon force, part will be disposed/sold/traded “to the Arabs”. And yes i am aware of the several Oman/Saudi stories that are current in the International press. Quite recently the “offloading Saudi scenario” (count the first 24 Saudi Phoons has part of the RAF order) was being discarded with some very strong words in… Madrid. Something like “these rules (contractual clauses) were imposed BY THE BRITISH, so dont even think of it…”
The British might, or might not come to sell/offload part of their Typhoon fleet to “the Arabs”, but for now, the original plan, 138 front line fighters on seven active sqns, a OCU and the Falklands detach, still stands.

Quite right, we didn’t sell aircraft, we sold production slots, allowing the saudi’s to get their birds early, we are still down for our full allotment of 232.

Jonesy thanks for clearing few things for me, and making me laugh 😀