RAFM Hendon Birthday Bash – 04 Apr 09

Cripes all mighty, look at all this fuss! Like James said, we were only there two days for this whole year so no need to worry if we offend you that much. As for authenticity, I can assure you that those on my display (22 Squadron RFC March 1918 with the Bristol Fighter) were top notch – medal ribbons were evident on the Officers tunic but these were original with the tunic and so to remove them would be like removing original markings on aircraft – removing a part of the history.

I’ll put up my photos later or tomorrow, if they don’t cause too much offence!

Is it more of a “hot topic” as the history is quite recent in many ways, with veterens still with us? I knew a guy who is into his Napolionic society in a big way and travels all around Europe on a regular basis. Full battle dress (he prefers the French) muskets etc, curious if the same debate is had with them?

I suspect that the only source of debate with Napoleonic era reenactors would come from issues of accuracy etc from other experts! It’s an interesting point, and one I would like to hear more about.

With the Second World War reenactors, there is of course the issue that there are still many veterans who are still with us. For them, their experiences, (like veterans of all conflicts) are a very personal and emotional thing. I suppose that if you have been part of that “Band of Brothers”, then I can see why some would take offence to anybody pretending to that, which is, a hard earned honour. The previously mentioned topic of reenactors wearing gallantry medals being one such example (although even campaign medals fall into this arena as far as I am concerned!). It can be a very emotive subject.

Happily though, I believe that the vast majority of veterans understand and appreciate what most respectful reenactors strive to achieve. Any criticism usually comes from others not associated with the veterans…

Regards;
Steve

Is it more of a “hot topic” as the history is quite recent in many ways, with veterens still with us? I knew a guy who is into his Napolionic society in a big way and travels all around Europe on a regular basis. Full battle dress (he prefers the French) muskets etc, curious if the same debate is had with them?

Sincere apologies if any offence was caused, I was trying to paraphrase and sorry if that sounded in any way harsh or judgemental – not my intent at all. It was good to see the positive comments from the veterens as well – if it is good enough for them…………!

Oh gosh! No offence taken! I was just highlighting the personal choice aspect! The comment is one I have heard used before though, and usually only aimed at reenactors for some reason…it’s just that it could be just as easily applied to a whole host of other pastimes and professions!

Regards;
Steve

As to “pretending to be something we’re not”, I do find that a bit of a harsh statement that only ever seems to be applied to the reenacting fraternity. Does this also apply to anyone in the television, theatre and film industry?

Had I ever personally received so much as one negative comment from any of these guys, I would have given it up!! In fact, we usually ended up being invited to join them at other reunions and was even presented with membership of the Normandy Veterans Association, of which I was very proud.

Thanks for listening to my ramble.

Regards;
Steve

Sincere apologies if any offence was caused, I was trying to paraphrase and sorry if that sounded in any way harsh or judgemental – not my intent at all. It was good to see the positive comments from the veterens as well – if it is good enough for them…………!

Through a mutual friend I met up with some guys with some Jeeps and trucks that they had rebuilt. They had insignia on the Jeeps, fake weapons etc, none wore a uniform. The view was, I love my Jeep, I rebuilt it and love to show it off but I’m not here to pretend to be something I’m not.

Hi!
I did the whole reenacting thing for many years (although gave it up some while back), and also “lovingly restored” Jeeps and trucks etc. We applied authentic insignia and fitted proper kit, but our outlook was that the personnel driving those vehicles should also “look the part”… and that’s the point of this whole debate….it’s all about personal choice! As to “pretending to be something we’re not”, I do find that a bit of a harsh statement that only ever seems to be applied to the reenacting fraternity. Does this also apply to anyone in the television, theatre and film industry?

Don’t get me wrong, I saw plenty of instances of reenacating done badly, and sometimes, downright shamefully. The War and Peace show at Beltring probably produced the most examples of this, but as the biggest show of it’s type in the world, probably unavoidable regardless of how many rules are put in place (..and the Cadman brothers do impose many rules!) It was, and is, practically impossible to enforce these rules strictly and completely when you are dealing with thousands of reenactors….

Most of the “reenacting” that I did, was for the benefit of a wide variety of veterans, from RAF to Army, USAAF, Airborne, Navy….we met loads over the years, both here and at places like Normandy and Arhnem. I can say with absolute honesty that we never received one negative statement in all those years. These guys were usually very happy to see their “old kit” at close quarters again (and we made sure that the period “bullsh*t” was strictly adhered to!!), always willing to share their experiences and a few extra tips about polishing brass, and generally felt that what we did was a positive, and educational thing. Had I ever personally received so much as one negative comment from any of these guys, I would have given it up!! In fact, we usually ended up being invited to join them at other reunions and was even presented with membership of the Normandy Veterans Association, of which I was very proud.

I also did it, because my old Grandad (now sadly departed) thought what I did was fantastic, and as a former Desert Rat, LRDG member and Military Medal recipient, that was good enough for me!!

What it provided for me, was the chance to meet, and learn from, a great many of my heroes. Those veterans one and all. No matter how many books I have read over the years, the knowledge I gained from these men and women was far greater than any printed account of those wartime years. I’m extremely grateful for that.

So, as far as reenactors are concerned, I approve, but only as long as it is done with authenticity, knowledge and respect. Unfortunately, there will always those “rotten apples” who will spoil it for others, but they are the minority who will always unfortunately be there. And also of course, reenacting is a matter of personal choice, and I respect that too.

Thanks for listening to my ramble.

Regards;
Steve

PS The ‘SS’ have got just as much to do with the thread as the Romans.

kev35

And what have the Romans ever done for us eh !?;)

Firstly, who put 50p in the electricity meter at Hendon ! See what a difference it makes!

As for the reenactors I’m sitting on the fence. To have a walking talking demo of (for example) how cumbersome a heated flying suit is, or how to work out a course at night with a sextant, slide rule and pad and paper can only be positive and as has been debated before, “Living history” has its place especially among the younger visitors. I have my doubts thought, about somebody wearing medal ribbons etc, and “living the part” – whatever the intentions. Maybe it is because many of the original recipients are still with us, maybe the last word should be with them?

I have seen it go too far, at the War & Peace show for example along the lines of what Kev says. People digging fox holes and living as Panzer Grenadiers for a few days, something about that mentality and interest nags at me a little. Through a mutual friend I met up with some guys with some Jeeps and trucks that they had rebuilt. They had insignia on the Jeeps, fake weapons etc, none wore a uniform. The view was, I love my Jeep, I rebuilt it and love to show it off but I’m not here to pretend to be something I’m not.

Yeah, a great way of celebrating the RAF’s birthday.

Don’t assume it’s a personal attack it isn’t. My point was any group you care to name has those achieving excellence – worth focussing on – and those producing substandard or dubious work – worth, as you’ve pointed out, managing.

I doubt that the RAF Museum’s reenactors deserved to be castigated with no evidence at all or linked with the second rate or morally dubious just after some posters feel it’s worth saying they (and their mates(!)) don’t like it. Well, fine. Ignore it. Go on one of the other days, skip the thread and leave your negative waves at home.

Another organisation and groups hard work and effort trashed for the pleasure of the online Meldrew brigade. Lovely.

There’s a debate to be had here, but frankly I’m not interested given Lancman’s and G-ASEA’s the opening.

Regards,

Thanks for that James.

You and Phillip Jarrett eh? Perhaps I should just give up and leave it to the professionals.

PS The ‘SS’ have got just as much to do with the thread as the Romans.

kev35

Fair point Kev.
Remarkably there are aviation writers, forum posters, vintage aircraft pilots (you choose the group) etc. who like to go to far or their history work is shoddy. That doesn’t mean we need to damn the rest for the failings of some. I didn’t notice any ‘SS’ in the Hendon photos, so what have they got to do with this thread? Yes, some reenactors put up a poor or inappropriate effort, but here? We don’t know.

Regards

Thanks for pictures it is good to see they have at least done something for the celebration and made an effort.

I like the re-enactors they convey a spirit of the priod and what it was like and the uniforms and equipment of the period but dont upset them as they bite 🙂 as i found out when i pointed out to a mate at Bletchley park a few years ago that US paratroops did not use the M1928 drum mag on their M1 Thompsons as they made too much noise and the guy standing there with it did not look happy 😀

Either way kudos to the RAFM for getting into the spirit they have taken a bit of a knocking on this forum lately maybe this is an attempt to raise their profile with the people they are there to represent.

curlyboy

It looks to have been a very nice event.

As for re-enactors, and more importantly re-enactment, I have mixed views. If done properly they can add a real sense of drama to a scene as evidenced at East Kirkby on the night run. I’ve seen it done well at other places too, Shawbury, Whittington, Cosby, Old Warden. On the other hand I’ve seen it done badly and also inappropriately. The ‘Japanese’ element at Old Warden really sticks in my mind. To see an elderly gentleman recoil in horror at the sight of a Japanese soldier seems to me to be taking things too far.

My opinions of re-enactors have, over the years, become more favourable, though there are exceptions. I think James has a very valid point re the educational aspect of experiencing, even in a limited way, some aspects of the period of history re-enactors are trying to portray. The vast majority of re-enactors are very knowledgeable regarding their particular time period. They are happy and willing to pass on their knowledge. We can all read about our particular periods of history but the hands on experience does make things more real. I’ve always thought RAF aircrew immensely brave going to war at night in Stirlings, Hampdens, Lancasters et al. My views were remarkably heightened by spending half an hour crawling around inside Just Jane.

However laudable the idea of ‘walking a mile in someone else’s shoes’ may be, we have to set limits. And some re-enactors seem incapable of self policing. RAF re-enactors wearing the ribbon of the DFC and DSO. More didn’t receive such awards than those who did and I find that slightly distasteful. Unless for a specific purpose or role I dislike the wearing of medals and ribbons to which the wearer is entitled only in their fantasies. I applaud the re-enactors who go to great lengths to portray the enemy (with exceptions) but surely James, even you must agree that there are those who take it too far. I refer to some of the more ‘specialised’ units who at the end of a day’s re-enactment sit around the campfire singing anti-semitic songs in German (albeit with a Dudley accent!)

Yes, re-enactors can be a great educational tool, they can also be something a great deal more sinister.

Regards,

kev35

Winge winge, moan moan.

If you don’t like reenactors, they’re hardly difficult to avoid – the rest of the year they’re not there; even at Flying Leg Ends just pick your moment. On the other hand they do give visitors a reason to turn up, a chance to ‘meet’ am ‘airman’ who will be better than reading a simplistic and in Hendon’s case poorly produced placard. Visitors also get to handle and understand some of the equipment. The reenactors also are learning about aviation history, in a manner some of us would do well to try – it’s all very well talking about it, it’s a learning experience to walk a mile in the boots.

I’d have loved to have seen even a mannequin dressed up in Roman army uniform when I was a kid, but that wasn’t OK with the reactionary museum approach in the UK on the 1970s. We were only allowed to see the crusty remnants and crap b&w drawing ‘reconstructions’. Now there’s whole Centuries of Romans fighting ‘battles’ and they are a great entry for kids and families as to what history was (in a limited way) like.

It’s not hard to find a bunch of mates called Meldrew who don’t like stuff in the UK. :rolleyes: I’d expect better from G-ASEA.

Brain great photos ..enjoyed them !

Brian :

Nice photos from Hendon…a great musuem and brings back some good memories of my visit there. Like the US airborne display as well… 101st I see has dropped into Hendon. It never ceases to amaze me how big the Lanc is when you see it in person…massive and what a bomb bay !!!! Very brave men flew in the for sure..thanks for sharing!

BlueNoser !

well you cannot please everyone I suppose!

I think I spot a forumite 🙂

Sorry but i dont like re-enactors, they just spoil it for me. I know a few other people with the same view.

Dave

Doesn’t work for me, what with the other clutter in the place and the Lanc’s tail in the air like that!

Interesting pictures! I like the idea behind having authentic uniforms and memorabilia beside the aircraft.