Re. MK356?

Show me a clipped wing, pointy tailed mk.IX and I’m in love:D

ok as a complete and utter spitfire novice whats the difference between all these marks?:confused:

I can tell the difference between a two seater and a single seater but why all the different canopy designs?(for the 2 seaters):confused:

The larger rear canopy is intended to give the back seat instructing pilot some forward vision.

The small rear canopy dates from the 80s when Nick Grace restored ML407. Perhaps he based this on a field modified MKIX that the Russians had in WW2. Some subsequent restorations have also used this idea – it looks better as it is lower, preserving more of the classic spitfire shape, but the view is said to be much worse than the large style and headroom is at a premium for taller people.

Anyway that’s the ‘why’. There are really only two styles you need to be aware of – small and large. Unless of course you spot a certain MKV with an extra front cockpit when digging in old books!

Just to be clear, there were a few different types of broad chord rudder. There was the type originally designed for the Mk.XII, which is the type as currently fitted to MK356 (drawing number 36623).

The MK.XIV highbacks then had a bigger rudder/fin assembly (with a fairing that carries over the tail unit/fuselage joint), which was also fitted to the XIX (and XXI possibly?). This looks like an enlarged version of the Mk.XII type rudder (drawing 37927 and 37923, I believe – it could be 37928!).

They then produced a larger chord rudder with a split balance tab for the Mk.XVIII. This type has also found its way onto a few Mk.XIVs. The final rudder type was the Spiteful type rudder/fin which was taller and more rounded.

I may have a few details wrong, but I believe it’s a generally accurate overview!

The ex Guy Black IX TE566?

Many, if not most, of the ex Czech, Israeli, Burmese high back Mk IX’s were fitted with the larger rudder.

Mark

Oh ok Mark12, thanks, I should study photos better !!!!

Steve

Ok thanks for that Mark12. i dont remember seeing any though !! Are there any Merlin powered spits with one now ? Guess you will say low back XVI. Seem to recall that RW382 was broad chord .

Steve

Mk.VIII – MT719, MV154. Mk.IX – MK356, MK912, ML417. PR.XI – PL965. Mk.XVI – RW386, TD248, TE814.

Ok thanks for that Mark12. I don’t remember seeing any though !! Are there any Merlin powered spits with one now ? Guess you will say low back XVI. Seem to recall that RW382 was broad chord .

Steve

The ex Guy Black IX TE566?

Many, if not most, of the ex Czech, Israeli, Burmese high back Mk IX’s were fitted with the larger rudder.

Mark

ok as a complete and utter spitfire novice whats the difference between all these marks?:confused:

I can tell the difference between a two seater and a single seater but why all the different canopy designs?(for the 2 seaters):confused:

Hi the larger canopy on the rear cockpit of a two seater is to allow better vision & also the rear seat pilot sits higher up in the airframe, pilots head had to go some where !!!
Steve

ok as a complete and utter spitfire novice whats the difference between all these marks?:confused:

I can tell the difference between a two seater and a single seater but why all the different canopy designs?(for the 2 seaters):confused:

Plenty of late Merlin powered Mk IX’s, together with Mks VII, VIII, XI & XVI fitted with the broader chord pointed type rudder.

Mark

Ok thanks for that Mark12. i dont remember seeing any though !! Are there any Merlin powered spits with one now ? Guess you will say low back XVI. Seem to recall that RW382 was broad chord .

Steve

Plenty of late Merlin powered Mk IX’s, together with Mks VII, VIII, XI & XVI fitted with the broader chord pointed type rudder.

Mark

The curved one is the earlier rudder style and the later is the ‘broad chord’ type. The chord is the distance from the leading edge of the rudder to the trailing edge. The broad chord rudder has greater surface area and gives more authority through the speed range, though I believe it’s particularly noticeable at low speed. Greater authority equals greater control equals less prone to a messy take off and landing….

Hi all, I thought broad chord rudders were fitted to Spitfires with griffon engines as a way of controling the greater power. Dont remember seeing any on MK IX’s.

Steve

TA805 has the smaller rudder because that is what the owner had with the project at the time we rebuilt it though he was looking for the larger correct type for a IXe. PL344 was fitted with the small rudder from JG891 when that project was bought for completion from HFL by Tom Blair. He preferred the classic Spitfire shape for PL344 (which had a small rudder in service) which is the same reason that the Vokes filter scoop was removed and a more standard profile lower cowl fitted to JG891. A new rudder was then built for the completion of JG891. The large rudder from PL344’s original D.Melton Aviation rebuild is in store in Maryland.

The curved one is the earlier rudder style and the later is the ‘broad chord’ type. The chord is the distance from the leading edge of the rudder to the trailing edge. The broad chord rudder has greater surface area and gives more authority through the speed range, though I believe it’s particularly noticeable at low speed. Greater authority equals greater control equals less prone to a messy take off and landing….

round one is early, pointy is later

regards

Ben

sorry for being a bit dopy but whys it curved in one shot and pointed in the other:confused:

a bit dopys right asuming their two different rudders which ones which

I would have thought most would retain the earlier-style for the sake of authenticity, though I believe ML417 retains her rudder from her Tr.9 days.

Eddie, thanks for your reply. Is this modification a personal thing with operator’s/pilots? At least six other airworthy Mk.IX’s have the early style rudder, MH434, MJ730, MK732, NH238, TA805 and PL344 which has had the reverse modification.

The when – shortly after TE311 and TB382 were acquired (the rudder is TB382’s, I believe), probably so 2002-2003 ish.
The why – it increases rudder authority, giving a higher crosswind limit.