Real Photographs Co…fate?

Thank you both – RN297 was officialy registered as with the Marine Aircraft Esperimental Establishment at that time – which is, of course, where a trials aircraft would be. It was transferred to 88 Squadron in 1951 and sold, as you say, in 1953 for conversion and used by Aquila Airways.

Sorry but I should have said, my puzzle is Sunderland EJ152 which was registered as going to “Sauders Roe East Cowes” on 3-10-45 and later (1948) to MoS.

My suspicion of a trials aircraft is only a thought – and probably a poor one. After all the Saro Shrimp (a gorgeous little plane) was the main test bed for the Shetland. It survived until 1949.

I just can’t imagine something the size of a Sunderland being a company hack. The other puzzle is that it seems EJ152 was still a MkIII. By that time most surviving Sunderlands had been converted to MkV. But then, some movement cards do have mistakes.

The A33 is an interesting, but ultimately flawed, aircraft. Peter London certainly tells the fullest story.

Allan

Ah, quite right, it was RN297, I was taking it from an awkwardly angled photo.

Allan,
I would agree with Matty on the purpose of the Sunderland re. Princess power control trials. The serial though was RN297, somewhere I have a not very good quality picture of it, in the hangar at Cowes in 1949. Quite how long they had it I am not sure, the Air Britain serials book shows it as being sold in June 1953.

As for the A33, really looks like it could have done with a couple of extra struts under the fuselage. Although the wing failure was due to a heavy landing, I reckon some one got the strength calcs a bit wrong!

Quite good detail on both in the ‘Putnam’ Saunders Roe book by Peter London.

Chumpy.

The other is a Sunderland that was transferred to SARO in October 1945, presumably as a trials aircraft. But I’d love to know more of what she was used for. Later recorded as sold to Ministry of Supply in September 1948 so was in use for a while.

Allan

I know that Sunderland RN237 was used by SARO to trial their power assisted flight control systems (hydro-mechanical I believe) in preparation for the Princess development. Is that the one you’re referring to?

Not classified – I’m getting known for my obsession with flying boats, at the moment particularly Sunderlands.

It is the Saunders Roe A33, which was the competition for the Sunderland, that interests me. The prototype, as you’ll know, was K4773 but after its wing failed in a heavy landing the project was abandoned.

The other is a Sunderland that was transferred to SARO in October 1945, presumably as a trials aircraft. But I’d love to know more of what she was used for. Later recorded as sold to Ministry of Supply in September 1948 so was in use for a while.

I’m due to be down Southampton way in September and was planning to get in touch with Solent Sky.

Oh, and my apologies for not yet having fully worked out when to refer to Saunders Roe and when to say SARO!

Allan

Hi Allan,
Yes a new avenue to follow..so thanks for your input! Tricky business regarding ownership of old photos, as you mentioned some under licence from the manufacture’s. Others perhaps taken by staff photographers from R.P….then sold on to I.A….god only knows!!!

As for the SARO archive the story as I understand it,…. as far as I know this consisted of photos only. I worked for the then British Hovercraft Corp during the 1970s/80s, the company having its own in house photographic department that held the negs and photos going back to the earliest days of Saunders Roe.
During the mid 1980s the company then part the GKN / Westland group saw much rationalization, with the photo department being ‘hived-off’ to private enterprise. As I recall it was the still the same photographer but now working outside the company, with him went the negs and photos. I would imagine though that the company still held ulitimate ‘rights’ to the images.
About five years ago the afore mentioned SARO/BHC archive was set up to cater for on-line sales of the more historic images, this a seperate business to the above. Alas as previously mentioned the archive is currently grounded, out there some-place awaiting a new custodian.

Again if it is not classified, what are you after?

Chumpy.

A thought on the original topic – I have a couple of Real Photograph Co postcards but they are images from the aircraft manufacturer. In this case I would suspect they only held the licence to use the images rather than the full copyright.
However, it also means that the images might be traced in two locations – making life marginally easier.

As for the SARO archive alas the chap who ran it here on the IOW had to give it up due to health problems. Last I heard was that Solent Sky might take it on.
Chumpy.

I was very interested to hear the location of the SARO archive. Is this just photos or the whole archive? I’d like to trace a couple of SARO photos but mainly I could do with tracking details of a trials aircraft they used postwar.

Allan

Thanks chumpy. I probably will create a request thread later on, but only when I’m one hundred percent sure what I’m in need of. Right now the project revolves around one of the last 3 Schneider trophy races, so anything related to them might come in handy – but until we narrow it down I’d rather not ask because I don’t want to waste peoples time.

The project is not classified 🙂 but I’d rather not say anything for fear of raising expectations. For what it’s worth I work in “the media” and aviation is merely a passion and not my profession but I’m hoping to merge the two with this. 😉

Hi Matty,
No need to apologise, this is the great thing about the Forum you never know where it will lead to! I certainly got my question answered and hopefully have passed on a bit of useful info to otheres along the way.

Not that I want to end this one but, it might well be a good idea for you to start a thread of your own asking for S6b info. As no doubt those out there with the knoweledge are going to be unaware, unless they stumble across this thread by chance.

Meant to ask what are you up to?… if it is not classified!

Chumpy.

tilleydog,

Nope, that’s not a stupid suggestion at all – I wasn’t even aware of it! After a quick Google I can barely find any mention of it so I don’t feel so bad.

I’d still like to get my mitts on the genuine article, so I might badger the Science Museum a little more before looking for alternatives.

I looked into access to Hendon’s library, it appears their photographic department is closed, or at least unable to make copies, but their library is open upon request.

This thread has been unexpectedly useful to me but I’d like to apologise to chumpy for sending it way off topic.

Matty,

This may be a stupid suggestion, but have you contacted Planes of Fame? I know they have an S6b replica, but I cannot remember what the cockpit was like.

I have searched through all the pics I took on my visit there a few years back and seem to mislaid the ones I took in that hangar.

I’m sure other members can tell you if you would be wasting your time contacting them, but as I said it’s only a suggestion.

Good luck with your search.

Geoff

Yeah, looks like a couple of metal devouring termites have had a go at that panel. I had noticed the holes when taking them, they’re far more apparent in your earlier photo however.
I was hoping the guy drilling them just needed to make a few practice holes first :rolleyes:

The pilot’s view wouldn’t have been great, although I think my camera was a little lower than his head would have been.
I sadly didn’t manage to get a good look at the seat and covering, she was very well packaged up and still in pieces (ironically she had just returned from a trip to Hendon). The seat leather appeared to be original, although it has gone very dark over the years.

If you could find a drawing of the panel as it was meant to be that would help a lot. I’m still slightly concerned the 6b may be very different. I imagine they may have wanted to make the coolant temp a little more visible from reading how they flew these things.

It’s good to hear the whereabouts of the SARO archive is in safe hands at least. I can only hope Solent Sky can afford to make them somewhat accessible.

For fun here’s the floor panel and the missing dials. There’s actually 4 holes (2 more behind the bubble wrap) but I only know what 3 of them were meant to be.

Matty,
Looking at your photo I reckon they are pretty much the same as in the 1980s when it came to the IOW….Great shot really shows what a lousy view the pilot had!….. Mine a company photo taken at the time.

Whilst the panel is certainly original, judging by the various redundant holes and patch plates really don’t think that these are the original instruments. The yellow oil gauge looks to be typical WW2 vintage the rest a bit more recent. Sure one of the Forum experts could give a informed opinion. Somewhere I think I have a sketch drawing of the panel layout, will send it on once I find it.

As for the SARO archive alas the chap who ran it here on the IOW had to give it up due to health problems. Last I heard was that Solent Sky might take it on.

Chumpy.

Hi Chumpy,

I was so pleased I managed to get shots of the cockpit and now you tell me the dials aren’t legit! 🙁

Here’s one of me snaps:

I did briefly look at gaining access to Hendon’s library but I was put off for some reason. I’ll be sure to look into it again soon, I can only take this project so far without proper reference.

You say you worked at Westland, you don’t by chance happen to know what happened to SARO’s archives? Are they in the hands of any museums?

Matty,
On the subject of Supermarine drawings, whilst Vickers did dump a lot of them, a fair number of Spitfire drawings for various Mks do survive at Hendon along with other Sup types including the S6.
I have not been to the library for several years, so not sure of the current policy. As I mentioned prior notice had to be obtained to get a ‘researchers’ library pass, but maybe this has changed?…If you find out let me know!

I worked at Westlands on the IOW during the 1980s when the Solent Sky machine was refurbished. As far as I recall the aircraft did not have it’s original instruments at that time, just various duff dials to fill up the holes in the panel!

Chumpy.

I’ll email Mr Lewer first then, a bit more direct. Thanks Roger!

I wonder how much of this sort of stuff BAE has locked away in it’s vaults..?

No! I hadn’t even heard of it. Not surprising considering it doesn’t physically exist right now according their website. I might contact the webmaster and see if I can get somewhere. Thanks!

True, Jet Age Museum don’t have an actual Museum – yet. However they seem a very active group and recently had the unveiling of their superb Gloster E28/39 replica/FSM and, I believe, have amassed a considerable Gloster Archive.

I have an e-mail (and tel. no/address) for Chairman John Lewer as published in their newsletter:

[email]johnlewer.kay2@virgin.net[/email]

Roger Smith.

Just a thought – have you tried the Jet Age Museum for Gloster photos?

Roger Smith.

No! I hadn’t even heard of it. Not surprising considering it doesn’t physically exist right now according their website. I might contact the webmaster and see if I can get somewhere. Thanks!

Honestly I’ve struggled to find any pictures of the Gloster IVb..

Just a thought – have you tried the Jet Age Museum for Gloster photos?

Roger Smith.

Big woolly jumpers seemed to be all the rage. Those pictures are new to me. Thanks very much! Probably the best source I have is the Schneider Trophy – Diamond Jubilee by Alan Smith. But the print quality or perhaps the original quality of the photographs is not the greatest. There doesn’t appear to have been any uniform or standard attire. Makes my job tough.

I thought the library at Hendon was entirely closed to the public. That’s literally just down the road from me. I’ll have to pay them another visit. I was also under the impression that all or at least many of the drawings from Supermarine were destroyed during the war…

The Solent Sky S.6a was missing the rev counter, which was there when Westland refurbished it in ’84. The floor instrument panel dials are still completely missing however.

Honestly I’ve struggled to find any pictures of the Gloster IVb. I literally have 4 blurry pictures from a half dozen books or so. Perhaps Hendon might come up trumps there too…

thanks again.