Rearwin for Melvyn

That is one weeerd system, I reckon you’d probably be better off with no brakes at all than this Mickey Mouse set up. I can’t understand why it was a dead end idea can you? 🙂

Melvcock, how easy would it be to say adapt the Cub Cleveland disk brake mod onto your conveyance?

There is a mod but it is not tidy and has a few problems. The Cub wheels use smaller diameter axles and so that is an engineeing issue and I would have to prove a heavy Rearwin (1800lbs) would be OK on the lighter Cub axles. It is far easier to use the thicker, stronger, axles I have a dn find a wheel and brake that fits. I think we have done this.

The other problem is that what fits on the floor in a cub to operate the brakes will not fit in a Cloudster. We are having to design the whole master cylinder thing so that it is foolproof.

Cub wheels would have been easier but not the answer.

Or, in plain english as a direct answer to your question, “just as difficult as what we are doing” (I hope)

M

Melvcock, how easy would it be to say adapt the Cub Cleveland disk brake mod onto your conveyance?

Couple of good points there I hadn’t thought of. Clutches are designed to slip a bit and then lock – not ideal for brakes. 🙂
Also the only units of that style I’ve had any dealings with were on old British ‘bikes which had replaceable inserts, rather than one-piece discs.

I’ll go back to my corner…

Did you mean guy or are you envious of his shape?

I’ve never heard of using a clutch as a brake either. If you’re planning on converting to hydraulic, couldn’t you do that to the existing brakes? It should get rid of all the cable problems and be far more positive.

I suppose I shoud say “Clutch-type”. These brakes are originally made by Goodyear and the drawing I have dates from about 1932. They were relatively common for a while but were a dead-end in brake design. In theory they are fine, you have a set of discs spinnign with the wheel and a set stuck on the axle. When you push them together the brake works but it is finding the correct material that is the hard bit, not the engineering. I am sure I could make these into a hydraulic system but that is still going to leave me the problem of the brake material. Try getting a company to quote on the set up costs of having sintered discs made! One place quoted £2,000 minimum and from what I have subsequently learned I donn’t think they would have managed it.

The other point about going the standard hydraulic route is that the parts are available. If the pads wear I get new ones, if the disc gets scored I get new ones. With the plate brakes I have to have everything engineered from new.

Has an email from Matco last night and they are confident they have a wheel and brake system that can also accomodate my spats. The next task is actually harder (the wheels and actual brakes are quite easy!) as we have to design the master cylinder arrangement and placement.

M

…Williams Aircraft Collection – nice gut too…

Did you mean guy or are you envious of his shape?

I’ve never heard of using a clutch as a brake either. If you’re planning on converting to hydraulic, couldn’t you do that to the existing brakes? It should get rid of all the cable problems and be far more positive.

Whoops, forgot the pics.

The plates and also the actuator.

M

plate brakes? never heard of them before! :confused: this really tickled my curiosity, u have a skectch drawing or something? u even talked about some brake pics u took.. 😀

There will be pics at the bottom. There are six plates in each wheel Three are splined onto the axle the other three are splined onto the wheel. When they are compressed they are supposed to pinch together. The problem is that at least part of the effort goes into just pulling the cable and stretching it. The cam is also pretty weak and only has about 3mm movement and so it is not possible to set them up so the wheels revolve freely and stop properly. Consequently there is always a heat build-up and the material fails.

Anyway, think twice before installing disc brakes on a taildragger, they can turn out to be too effective and cause annoying results.. I’d definitely go for the drum ones.
Alex

The problem is what is available for the wheel size. We are not talking a common aeroplane here! The axle size and wheel size and wheel format is different to other aeroplanes. You can do a mod to fit Cub brakes but they are pretty useless too and this is a 850kg aeroplane. It needs to be able to run up and some Cubs can barely do this without moving with less weight and fewer horses. The discs were not my first choice but having spoken to a lot of people over the past few weeks (since I left my wheel pants at La Ferte!) I know of several people that have them on things like Vagabonds and they work well.

The Rearwin has the wheels well forward and so braking in taxying is not an issue and you can set the discs up so they are not too fierce.

You would rarely use them to stop you on a landing roll but you do need them to keep you straight after landing. There is no rudder authority at all from about 30mph and the tailwheel steering is ineffective then as the wheel sloped backwards and so automatically tries to stay straight.

As long as the brakes are progressive in operation they will be fine. I was explaining to my dad about them today. I told him you don’t need brakes to stop a taildragger you just need them to stop you starting!

Melv

plate brakes? never heard of them before! :confused: this really tickled my curiosity, u have a skectch drawing or something? u even talked about some brake pics u took.. 😀
Anyway, think twice before installing disc brakes on a taildragger, they can turn out to be too effective and cause annoying results.. I’d definitely go for the drum ones.

Alex

thanks Melv! 🙂
u have drum or disk brakes? This reminds me of the sooo many headaches and good pints of brake fluid when adjusting the Tiger Moth ones… despite our efforts we often had one wheel blocking or with no braking power at all, expecially on grassy airfields..

Alex

Neither. These are plate brakes, like motorbike clutches. Cable operated and useless. I have tried all sorts of ways of adjusting (and more) and they do not work.

I am in the middle now of getting hydralic discs organised.

M

thanks Melv! 🙂
u have drum or disk brakes? This reminds me of the sooo many headaches and good pints of brake fluid when adjusting the Tiger Moth ones… despite our efforts we often had one wheel blocking or with no braking power at all, expecially on grassy airfields..

Alex

U definitely made a superb job with yr Rearwin mate 🙂
I think I’ve never seen the interiors, do u have some pics of it? Sorry if I’m invading yr privacy 😉

Alex

Was down there today taking photos of the brakes so that I can finally rid myself of them!

Did this while I was there.

Tart!!!

Back on the ground now with more brake problems!

and all the flying I have done . . .

Tart!!!

Melv

I posted this Pic taken at the Historic Aircraft Restoration Museum, Creve Coeur, Missouri. You havent insulted me so I assume you missed it.

I think they nicked your paint.

Didn’t mean to not insult you. I did see it but with life being hectic and all the flying I have done . . .

The paint looks a tad bluer than mine but they bought in bulk, there were no flies on the Rearwins! Ken told me a great story about he and Dwayne Wallace of Cessna would buy steel tube in one go to save 10c a foot!

My friend Russ Williams (google on Williams Aircraft Collection – nice gut too) has a Sportster. If I ever pay off the debts from the Rearwin I might try to go back to the US of A, perhaps when I retire, and go fly it.

M

Melv

I posted this Pic taken at the Historic Aircraft Restoration Museum, Creve Coeur, Missouri. You havent insulted me so I assume you missed it.

I think they nicked your paint.

Thanks Melvyn. Thanks to this forum I am slowly learning about this fabulous looking machine and other historical machines. I have always been an aviation enthusiast but only recently (last 10 years or so) became the fanatic I am today

Mine has a 145 Warner (pause to listen to Bank Manager in Southampton screaming) and it is a great engine apart form the fact there is no oil recirculation for the rockers and so what goes in the lower ones goes down the fuselage.

This aeroplane was started with a 90hp Ken Royce, like on the Rearwin Sportster, but mine was converted on the line to take a 120 Ken Royce. The first two Cloudsters flew with 90hp engines and they were underpowered. Mine is no 3. The fourth one also had a 90hp and that is still around. That is a lot of aeroplane for 90 horses!

Mine had a 125hp Warner in 1957 and then the 145 in 1968. That engine then went off to fly on the Avro 504 replica that is in New Zealand and I bought the remains as ‘airworthy just needs new engine’ which all the paperwork supported. Sadly the condition was not as good as that and previous rebuilds had been a little careless. 12 years later I turn up at North Weald!

There did used to be a 8135T Cloudster which is a two seater tandem instrument trainer but that went back to the US about ten years ago so mine is the only one in Europe.

Glad you had a nice day. I would think the air was a bit lumpy though with all that heat to create thermals. BTW what engine is in your aircraft? I only ask because I know nothing about them, though I think I might just recognise one if I saw it having seen all these photos.

I can’t believe I missed all the other stuff in the links mentioned earlier. God that is one lovely looking machine both in shape and the excellent job of restoring her to her former glory. Better than new comes to mind.

Thanks Mike, most ‘precieated!

Had a good day today, I was at North Weald for a while but wanted to get over to meet a friend (yes I do have one or two) at Rochester. I was glad I went there, they need supporting (not that North Weald doesn’t too). Peter T brought the Spitfire through just as we were leaving.

It was good fun.

M