Rebuilding the Marine National

About the Avisos: a recent new from the “Mer et Marine” website (which I recommend for its excellent work) states thats the 10 remaining Avisos would be reclassed as Patrol craft, with most of theit “heavy” equipment (sonar, exocets missiles..etc) removed, to replace the P400s…

That’s a stop-gap but no better solution seems to have been found…

At least they have good high seas navigation’s capabilities…

Note: as a personnal point of view, I really like the Rolls-Royce UT designs and think they would fit most of the job…
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Vaporizers

Of course P400 are too small. Anything below 2000ts makes open-ocean crossings too dependant on good weather.

Do you need oceanic transit capability in any routine sense for a vessel at the P400 end of the scale though?. Look at where they are based, what tasks they undertake and what sort of costs are envisaged to provide the capability that they do.

The transoceanic capability is where the surveillance frigate fits in to the picture. The P400’s are inter-island constabulary assets providing a modest presence for a very modest outlay. Dispatch a group to the operational theatre on a transport vessel and leave em there ever more. Theyre cheap hulls that can be supported in any modest commercial yard.

Replacing the capability provided by the current boats cheaply and easily with similar hulls would not appear to be an issue.

The issue is whether they are still a practical solution to the constabulary mission in the waters they are based in. According to Hk’s quotation from the French head of the surface fleet that doesnt appear to be the case. Replacing the austere patrol and transport assets with a single type is going to require some very big compromises or more money than would seem to be readily available going by the last news out of Paris.

One vessel that immediately springs to mind is naturally the Austal MRV. Transport capability, speed and aviation capability on a hull that is still reasonably supportable in austere forward basing. Chances of the French going for a foreign design being somewhat remote of course it would appear that they are in for some fun trying to get that one squared away!

Any chances for by now established programs such as NUMC, BAM or NPO making off-the-shelf inroads there? On the basis that DCN would be relatively busy with FREMM, the two new Mistrals, the Durance replacement and Barracuda in the very same timeframe.

Of course P400 are too small. Anything below 2000ts makes open-ocean crossings too dependant on good weather.

At first observation the P400’s seem to present less of an issue to address than the Floreals. CMN still offer the basic P400 in the Vigilante design and have sold a couple to Brazil recently in the form of the NAPA-500 class boats. Directly replacing the existing P400’s with new builds wouldnt seem to be an absurdity unless the boats have been unsuccessful in service….something there is no evidence of that I’ve ever seen…apart from a few initial teething troubles?.

The P400 is apparently not a success. The 2nd most senior French admiral (in charge of the surface fleet), has described it as “too small, too fragile, and too slow”, especially for missions in the Indian and Pacific Oceans. He’s suggested that the P400, Floreal and avisos should all be replaced by one class of ocean-going, helicopter capable ships.

Adding more complexity to this problem, the Batral LSTs and BSM small support ships also need to be replaced within the same timeframe. Their tonnage and “public service” / coast guard missions overlap somewhat with the P400 and Floreals… Several suppliers are therefore positioning themselves to replace all or part of this highly eclectic fleet:

Rolls-Royce UT designs

http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=102955

CNIM Multipurpose Patrol Vessel

http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=108582

DCNS Gowind

http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=108427

Swerve….fair comment…my apologies, sir!.

Hehe.

Let’s touch a couple extra topics… has any thought been given yet officially to a renewal of the (overseas) patrol fleet? I.e. not only the Floreals, but also the P400s and three or four singular trawlers acquired for patrols in the South Seas. Pretty much the only newer class in that regard (Flamant) is stationed in the mainland French EEZ. Same question goes for the (forward-deployed) Champlains.
I know some of these (in particular the P400) are only 20 years old, but they presumably wear out relatively fast with their kind of workload overseas.

This is actually a really interesting question as the MN has fallen into the block obsolescence trap with both of the patrol classes.

The oldest Floreal completed in 1990 which, at 18 years old now, isnt too bad and you’d look to a 25yr lifespan at least out of a hull even if built to commercial, not military, standards. The problem is that the 6th and final unit, IIRC, completed just 2 years later and so the whole class is going to require replacement within a very short space of time from the leadship retirement.

The situation with the P400’s replicates this but follows the block obsolescence problem even more acutely as all 10 hulls were built between ’83-’85. All the hulls are within just a few years of what you would class as the end of a fair service life.

At first observation the P400’s seem to present less of an issue to address than the Floreals. CMN still offer the basic P400 in the Vigilante design and have sold a couple to Brazil recently in the form of the NAPA-500 class boats. Directly replacing the existing P400’s with new builds wouldnt seem to be an absurdity unless the boats have been unsuccessful in service….something there is no evidence of that I’ve ever seen…apart from a few initial teething troubles?.

Would anyone like to discuss the French navy?

Ohhhh come on now swerve, you wouldn’t want end my fun reading now would you?
🙂

Hehe.

Let’s touch a couple extra topics… has any thought been given yet officially to a renewal of the (overseas) patrol fleet? I.e. not only the Floreals, but also the P400s and three or four singular trawlers acquired for patrols in the South Seas. Pretty much the only newer class in that regard (Flamant) is stationed in the mainland French EEZ. Same question goes for the (forward-deployed) Champlains.
I know some of these (in particular the P400) are only 20 years old, but they presumably wear out relatively fast with their kind of workload overseas.

Oh, and any news on potential Durance replacements?

Would anyone like to discuss the French navy?

I’m not even going to bother replying to your non-sense piece by piece. Redirecting merely meant sending it to specifically watch Faina now, versus just patrol the area. This isn’t something you comprehend though. Star’s post just confirms your lack of knowledge on the matter – I mean why oh WHY did the Pacific Fleet have this area, and not the Black Sea Fleet, back in the mighty Soviet days? Hmm! Guess the other fleets were out of commission! :rolleyes: What stupidity.

Goodbye.

In other words you know you are wrong, ave been proven wrong but a lack the maturity prevents you from admitting it.:rolleyes:

Yes….high tech Japanese fishing boats….absolutely must have satellites for that one. I shall have to get on to the Ministry. See what they say when I tell them that we need radar sats to keep an eye on various nations fishing vessels in our EEZ!.;)

Obviously Japanese guiding navy is guiding these fishing vessels in avioding Russian ships to steal fish.

So you have this evidence then. You can provide us at least a designation for this new system?. A launch schedule or an IOC for the new capability perhaps?. You see Star if you aren’t in possession of this evidence the question naturally follows how you know they exist?.

Russians are clearly spending far more on Military than on Civillian side of Satellite business. U can expect ten times satellite production. It is Strategic sector jus lik Topol missile.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/04/business/worldbusiness/04gps.html?n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/People/K/Kramer,%20Andrew%20E.&pagewanted=all
You know how much I care about Glonass,” Mr. Putin told his ministers

http://www.rscc.ru/en/company/publ/2008.04.29.html
We acquired unique experience in Summer 2007 while providing the Arctic expedition headed by Arthur Chilingarov, the famous Russian polar explorer, with communications services. We faced a very important task to provide a satellite channel for online video transmissions from the meridian convergence point. The territories beyond the polar circle are unavailable for geostationary satellites, thus the Molniya satellites on the high-elliptical orbit were used. The spacecraft was in the field of vision for maximum 2 hours, but wide community could observe settling down the Mir manned deep-diving vehicles at a depth of 4 km

They lack credibility and detail (which wasn’t included on purpose) in your eyes, which makes me care little.

What was the purpose for saying something so facile?. Were you deliberately trying to make yourself look vapid and inconsequential?.

They are both multi-purpose ships, and at the moment, are more than capable of defending Russia’s land mass in combination with the subs, aviation and ground forces.

Thats not why they were built though and now you really are trying desperation measures to throw up enough chaff to try and obscure the basic point. Pitiful behaviour really – though I doubt you care about that either.

Hard to say, as these are very well state secrets. There’s 30 satellites which you still haven’t accounted for.

State secrets now are they….so how do you know about them?. Where is your credible source for the existence of those ‘extra’ 30 satellites that you claim are in orbit?.

Also, in case you haven’t noticed, Russia isn’t under any immediate threat, so the guidance system POTENTIALLY NOT BEING UP (it probably well is), isn’t even a problem. If the US decided to poke its nose and get aggressive, with less than a week’s notice I’m sure any necessary guidance systems could be launched. This is simple logic.

ahhh so the SS-N-19 that would be so funny hitting a carrier….it would have to wait ‘less than a week’ before it could be fired would it?. IF there actually IS a couple of dozen ‘secret satellites’ and a number of ready launchers to hand!.

I think that wraps it up quite neatly Echo. Face it – you are a fantasist and you are making all this up as you go along to fit your vision of what ‘should’ be. How’s that line go ‘better the lies that exalt us than a thousand truths that condemn’!.

OK so, if I take you at your word, your comment was unrelated to the deployment then and just a spurious and shallow comment that lack detail and any real credibility?. OK – you say so pal.

They lack credibility and detail (which wasn’t included on purpose) in your eyes, which makes me care little.

Ships serve doctrine. Look it up. See if Kirov or Slava fits the bill.

They are both multi-purpose ships, and at the moment, are more than capable of defending Russia’s land mass in combination with the subs, aviation and ground forces.

….but you can hardly use them to attempt to patch up the dignity of the surface fleet?.

Sure you can, the Navy is a while unit, not a set of units, at least in my eyes.
The stand-off capabilities of all vessels are quite impressive for defensive purposes.

Yes Legenda was the surviveable part of the guidance system. Which new satellites?. When were they placed up?.

Hard to say, as these are very well state secrets. There’s 30 satellites which you still haven’t accounted for.

Thats on the proviso that your initial value for the number of satellites actually operational in orbit is the same as the number that are in orbit. Quite a stretch of the imagination. Satellite lifepans, in LEO, are more usually measured in months than in years. Some Russian recon assets thats actually days not months!. Nothing new and unrecognisable has been put up recently and there have been no mysteriously unscheduled launches to have carried these new assets into orbit….over to you to substantiate new ocean recon assets Echonine.

Again, you can’t account for those 30 satellites can you? I didn’t think so.

Also, in case you haven’t noticed, Russia isn’t under any immediate threat, so the guidance system POTENTIALLY NOT BEING UP (it probably well is), isn’t even a problem. If the US decided to poke its nose and get aggressive, with less than a week’s notice I’m sure any necessary guidance systems could be launched. This is simple logic.

So why did you use the word redirected?:rolleyes:

No because it was the only ocean going ship available.

What? All navy ships are security orientated, thats the purpose of a navy…:rolleyes:

Because she was already tasked with the Venezuela cruise along with the Chebanenko.

No it is a specially designed ASW frigate and if anything is less multi-role than the Moskva.

I’m not even going to bother replying to your non-sense piece by piece. Redirecting merely meant sending it to specifically watch Faina now, versus just patrol the area. This isn’t something you comprehend though. Star’s post just confirms your lack of knowledge on the matter – I mean why oh WHY did the Pacific Fleet have this area, and not the Black Sea Fleet, back in the mighty Soviet days? Hmm! Guess the other fleets were out of commission! :rolleyes: What stupidity.

Goodbye.

U need very precise intelligence/navigation to capture those high tech japanese boats at night time at high seas which are guided by japnese navy but cannot come to there help when Russians turns there guns on them.

Yes….high tech Japanese fishing boats….absolutely must have satellites for that one. I shall have to get on to the Ministry. See what they say when I tell them that we need radar sats to keep an eye on various nations fishing vessels in our EEZ!.;)

u need evidence from manufacturer how many satellites they are manufacturig now vs a decade ago. offcourse these are not for storage. This is the only way of knowing about satellites.

So you have this evidence then. You can provide us at least a designation for this new system?. A launch schedule or an IOC for the new capability perhaps?. You see Star if you aren’t in possession of this evidence the question naturally follows how you know they exist?.

Yep of course you can count them. The launcher type would give half the game away in the first place. Ocean radar reconsats are not little lightweight comms birds – they are a bit more substantial than that and, to carry a piggyback ‘secret’ radar sat of a new and unheard of design, would require a reasonably heavy lift capability. Why would someone send up a heavy lifter half empty….hmmm….might be worth getting the optics on that one as it reaches orbit!.

No argument that Russian sats stay operational about as long as everone elses. Thats not the point I was making – the fact remains that there is no point going back 5 years in the records because there will be very few satellites still alive in LEO from that time.

You can accuse me of delusion when you are talking about ‘secret’ radar satellites that you have been utterly unable to point towards a single shred of credible evidence is even under design let alone ‘secretly’ orbitted?. You once ‘reliably’ informed me of how there were 50 of them in orbit spying on the Japanese fishing fleet, IIRC, I am still waiting for the list of those 50 platforms Star?. I suspect I will be waiting a considerable while longer?.:rolleyes:

U need very precise intelligence/navigation to capture those high tech japanese boats at night time at high seas which are guided by japnese navy but cannot come to there help when Russians turns there guns on them.
u need evidence from manufacturer how many satellites they are manufacturig now vs a decade ago. offcourse these are not for storage. This is the only way of knowing about satellites.

So u can count number of satellites in each launch? and life of Satellites is as good as best or better in some cases than anyone else. I would keep ur delusions for times to come.

Yep of course you can count them. The launcher type would give half the game away in the first place. Ocean radar reconsats are not little lightweight comms birds – they are a bit more substantial than that and, to carry a piggyback ‘secret’ radar sat of a new and unheard of design, would require a reasonably heavy lift capability. Why would someone send up a heavy lifter half empty….hmmm….might be worth getting the optics on that one as it reaches orbit!.

No argument that Russian sats stay operational about as long as everone elses. Thats not the point I was making – the fact remains that there is no point going back 5 years in the records because there will be very few satellites still alive in LEO from that time.

You can accuse me of delusion when you are talking about ‘secret’ radar satellites that you have been utterly unable to point towards a single shred of credible evidence is even under design let alone ‘secretly’ orbitted?. You once ‘reliably’ informed me of how there were 50 of them in orbit spying on the Japanese fishing fleet, IIRC, I am still waiting for the list of those 50 platforms Star?. I suspect I will be waiting a considerable while longer?.:rolleyes:

Thats on the proviso that your initial value for the number of satellites actually operational in orbit is the same as the number that are in orbit. Quite a stretch of the imagination. Satellite lifepans, in LEO, are more usually measured in months than in years. Some Russian recon assets thats actually days not months!. Nothing new and unrecognisable has been put up recently and there have been no mysteriously unscheduled launches to have carried these new assets into orbit….over to you to substantiate new ocean recon assets Echonine.

So u can count number of satellites in each launch? and life of Satellites is as good as best or better in some cases than anyone else. I would keep ur delusions for times to come.

Making it clear you didn’t understand what I was saying.

OK so, if I take you at your word, your comment was unrelated to the deployment then and just a spurious and shallow comment that lack detail and any real credibility?. OK – you say so pal.

Offensive is only part of the equation. Just as the Navy is only part of the whole military.

Ships serve doctrine. Look it up. See if Kirov or Slava fits the bill.

Those subs are also part of the Navy – so the reduced number of surface ships since 1985 isn’t exactly tragic.

….but you can hardly use them to attempt to patch up the dignity of the surface fleet?.

Legenda was only part of the guidance system. There’s no reason to believe some of the new satellites don’t incorporate some satellite component for the SS-N-19. Technology has gone a long way.

Yes Legenda was the surviveable part of the guidance system. Which new satellites?. When were they placed up?.

The GLONASS birds are listed in dual purpose (military/civilian). That leaves 40 satellites which you haven’t accounted for. (Well maybe 30, since I recall you showed me info on 10).

Thats on the proviso that your initial value for the number of satellites actually operational in orbit is the same as the number that are in orbit. Quite a stretch of the imagination. Satellite lifepans, in LEO, are more usually measured in months than in years. Some Russian recon assets thats actually days not months!. Nothing new and unrecognisable has been put up recently and there have been no mysteriously unscheduled launches to have carried these new assets into orbit….over to you to substantiate new ocean recon assets Echonine.

Waters around Somalia (Yemen) come under Pacific fleet since Soviet Times. Black Sea fleet has nothing to with it. Pacific fleet is currently engage in its own exercises.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Pacific_Fleet
In the Soviet years, the Pacific Fleet was also responsible for the administration and operational direction of the Soviet Navy’s Indian Ocean (8th) Squadron and Soviet naval bases hosted by nations in the Indian Ocean rim, such as the facilities at Aden