Rebuilding the Royal Navy

Yeh, i did exagerate a bit there.. ha i was away with the moment and the ideas came as i was going along. and when you take into account a T45 costs 550m my figures would be optimistic to put it lightly!

also Ocean needs to be replaced by 2 LPH’s as a CVF can’t serve as an LPH far too expensive it would only cost about 500m to build 2 LPH lets say 800ft long displacing about 32000t

I’m afraid that price is hopelessly optimistic. Allow for inflation since Ocean was built, & you’re already at that price, & Ocean was 1) built at a loss, 2) needed more money to be spent to bring her up to standard & 3) is 2/3rds of the size of what you’re proposing.

I estimated a few months ago that allowing for inflation & the original underpricing, the real price of Ocean in todays prices was about £300mn. Adjust upwards for size, & a new austere LPH of the size you propose would probably cost at least £400 mn, or at least £750 mn for two.

Seeing as it’s purely hypothetical we could alter the design of CVF to say, 860-880ft (about 261-268m) and 48000-54000tonnes capable of carrying 26-28 F-35b and 6 EH-101/ASaC and we’ll have 3 thank you very much also might be worth looking into E-2 with an uprated RR turboprop and whether it could get up off a skiramp and fitting arrestors to the carriers

10 T-45’s (3rd batch of 4, slightly extended comes with 64 VLS (+16 Aster ABM when available) room to fit another 16 if needed later)
8 C-1 (ASW/Helicopter cruiser, 540ft (just over 160m) 7400-8200T T45 hull based, 3 EH-101’s, 48 VLS
64x CAMM, 32x SCALP naval. 2087 TAS, advanced Hull mounted sonar, Artisan etc.)

large escort increasing plans would have to revolve around small cheap frigates which is C-2, effectively a modern Leander being of similar size(360<380ft) and in the 3500t region Export potential could be large, especially as a probable MEKO200 replacement and would be an extremely attractive proposition to those navies that have no need for the destroyer sized frigates entering service in the rest of western Europe at the moment and there is over 20 MEKO’s in service in a fair few different navies

in RN service these would be fitted for formidable ASW capabilities and easily capable of defending itself from missiles and aerial attack also plonk a couple of harpoon launchers on it. so armament would comprise of 32 CAMM, Stingray’s, 8 Harpoon AShM (some new builds, most ripped off of T23’s) not sure whether it would be feasible to have a hangar big enough for an EH-101 on such a small vessel. but definitely a deck big enough for one, effective Hull mounted sonar, likelihood of adding a formidable TAS in the future being high not sure about numbers but 16+ would be reasonable

C-3 based on C-2 hull, lesser armament bit lighter, capable of self defense from missiles etc. no hangar, large reconfig bay (not much to write about without going into too much depth and I’m a bit tired ATM) as far as numbers go I’ve no idea

possibility of 2 “50t gunboats” to be fielded on the above similar to CB2010 only with 81mm AMOS derivative(to retain commonality and 120mm supposedly doesn’t offer a great performance increase over 81mm yet 81mm offers a considerably higher RoF), Starstreak Launcher (covering both SAM and ATGM if she is as capable at that as originally thought), couple of 20mm guns and GPMG’s not sure if I’ve overloaded this and got carried away
^^ only an idea open to scrutiny

Regarding C-3 NOT these are not to replace Sanddown Minehunters, those would be replaced by a Catamaran Tupperware type vessel

Amphibs.. 2 more bay’s for the RFA please sir

also Ocean needs to be replaced by 2 LPH’s as a CVF can’t serve as an LPH far too expensive it would only cost about 500m to build 2 LPH lets say 800ft long displacing about 32000t to make it capable of playing with F35b’s aswell as a large helicopter force paired with a large EMF

i don’t think we need another Albion in the event of another cold war esp if we have the above

and there would be a possibility of reforming 41 Commando

Submerged fleet:

possibly the hardest and most expensive bit to build up we can’t afford to cover it all with Astutes or even 100% SSN’s for that matter so lets say:
8 Astutes, followed by 6 smaller cheaper SSK’s (we could work with the RAN on that as they’ll need Collins replacements at about the same time, every export helps[/tescos]) after which I’ll adopt the idea posted before of 6 SSBN/GN’s by the time that’s done it’d almost be time to replace the earlier astutes again

enlarge MARS project seems the easiest way to bump up RFA capabilities

Rotary wing is obviously larger in the above proposed fleet could look at the possibility of the FAA fielding some modified AAC Apache’s they do have folding wings, working against corrosion would be the major project, alternatively more FLynx’s for the FAA including some AH Variants, and lots and lots and lots of EH-101’s regardless

as there is a possibility of a high degree of commonality between RAN and RN in the above it might be easier to have Modified Canberra’s instead of large LPH’s i can only see a win win situation for both of us, only thing i don’t like about them is on all of the CGI’s the flight deck looks massively cramped

CIWS: I’ve not covered much on close range weapons and CIWS or softkill that is because 1: a review of the CIWS should take place either looking at replacing Phalanx with RAM (albeit i do begrudge spending so much on what are basically box launched 40 year old AAMS, so a CAMM derivative would be a possibility), or alot more goalkeepers which is again expensive seeing as we only have 15 in the MOD parts bin (well we will have when Vincies and T22B3’s are out of service) and I’m not sure if we can justify buying Millennium guns
and 2: I’m a bit lazy or it’s up for debate

Expect 155mm to be the gun of the fleet

i respect that what I’ve written might seem incomprehensible and unorganised and bloody long but if you’ve read it tell me what you think

BTW: Hi, only joined the forums for this section. been reading it for some time though.

In my opinion, C2 will pretty much be a direct T23 replacement with the 32 or so SAM’s, 8 Harpoons and either one merlin or two lynx. C1 will be about the same size as the T45 and will have everything the C2 will have, but will have extra VLS cells for land attack missiles in addition.

Minimum numbers should be something like:

2 CVF
10 T45 (Fleet AAW)
10 C1 (8 Fleet ASW/2 Command)
28 C2/C3 (10 ‘Batch1’ Patrol Combattant/18 ‘Batch2’ OPV)

12 Astute SSN
4 Future SSBN

Amphib Fleet as per present model.

I agree, though as we have discussed, perhaps ad nauseam, the right mix of capabilities is difficult to pin down. If we are going for twenty of the T45/C-1 design, I would prefer to get a slightly different mix. My preference would be:

2 CVF
2 LHD (probably something much like the Spanish Juan Carlos/Aussie Canberra)
4 Type 45 ‘Global Cruiser’, basically a stretched T45, with more aviation facilities, and perhaps a larger VLS, to allow for land attack missiles.
8 Type 45
8 C-1 (T45 derived, but carrying a pair of Merlins, and Sonar 2087)
16 C-2 (fitted with moderate armament, but upgradeable if needed)
16 C-3 (same hull as C2, but reduced armament fit, preferably upgradeable)

Amphibs would be as-now, though preferably with a couple more of the Bay class, to allow two amphib groups to be properly supported.

12 Astute
4 Vanguard

It might be possible to replace the Vanguards with six of an evolved design, with them having a kind of ‘plug and play’ SSGN role. There would be no more Trident missiles than now, with the excess boats being used as cruise missile launchers, much like USS Ohio is now. This would also give the subs some genuine role other than pure deterrent duties. Six boats would always allow at least one deterrent sub at sea at all times, with a second almost always available (e.g. for conventional duties), while a third is at moderate readyness to deploy. I know it would be expensive, and controversial, but it could be worth it, and ensure that we get some return for our investment on deterrent.

For the RFA, the major investments will need to be in the form of:

Fleet replenishment – to support the carrier and amphib groups, and also support the smaller detachments (e.g. C-2s/-3s forward deployed). These will likely need to have good aviation facilities, as RB mentions on his site.

Sea based logistics – to support land forces, preferably sufficient to always be able to support two deployed Brigades.

Forward Aviation support – supporting deployed aircraft. It may be possible to combine this with the JCTS role, if we’re talking of using a large MARS-derived hull.

Of these, obviously the greatest number of new ships will be the fleet replenishment ships, but the other roles will still need quite a few ships. Other than these new ships, there will obviously need to be the RoRos, either under the current sort of arrangement, or just bought outright (and perhaps then leased back?).

John Hutton is supporting plans for an EU military force:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5014832.ece

I’d say that supports a further reduction in Escort numbers, after all, if there’s one thing the EU navies have it’s plenty of Frigates.

It’s a good job labour have no hope of winning another election

Minimum numbers should be something like:

2 CVF
10 T45 (Fleet AAW)
10 C1 (8 Fleet ASW/2 Command)
28 C2/C3 (10 ‘Batch1’ Patrol Combattant/18 ‘Batch2’ OPV)

12 Astute SSN
4 Future SSBN

Amphib Fleet as per present model.

Honestly, the extent on any future expansion of the RN would probably be the Acquiring of the final 6 cancelled T45’s, the ordering of 20 C1’s &/or C2’s to bring the escort numbers back up to the 32 in the SDR as well as the recommissioning of Invincible in the CVS Role with Ark Royal as a Dedicated LPH.

Would give:
2 CVS
2 LPH
12 T45
20 C1 & C2
2-4 LPD + LSD’s
20-30 Large OPV’s/Sloops replacing the MCM and OPV(H) fleets. In an ideal world additional ones would be purchased to replace the Archer’s and Scimitar’s at Gibraltar, Cyprus and in the RNR.

RFA expanded to support two simultaneous task groups of whatever the optimal size is considered, plus the normal operations around the world.

Invincible and Illustrious would be replaced by the two CVF’s, Ark Royal and Ocean by a pair of purpose built LPH’s.

In an ideal world i would like a front line fleet off

2 CVF
12 Fully equiped Type 45
20 C1-C2
2 LPH

Nah, not really “plenty”. The WEU as the core military force of the EU currently has only ~100 escorts, which, with ongoing reductions will be pushed more towards ~90 by the end of the next decade (albeit of course while increasing tonnage).
About exactly the same amounts as the US Navy, or twice what the JMSDF or Russia could muster.

I’m thinking purely of politicians and finance ministers view point, we all know that defence isn’t exactly a priority for many of these.

Nah, not really “plenty”. The WEU as the core military force of the EU currently has only ~100 escorts, which, with ongoing reductions will be pushed more towards ~90 by the end of the next decade (albeit of course while increasing tonnage).
About exactly the same amounts as the US Navy, or twice what the JMSDF or Russia could muster.

John Hutton is supporting plans for an EU military force:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5014832.ece

I’d say that supports a further reduction in Escort numbers, after all, if there’s one thing the EU navies have it’s plenty of Frigates.

Can’t see any real chance of RN ever having 30 odd escorts again unless something really serious kicks off.

True, but the recommissioning of Invincible is slightly more likely assuming they had the money and manpower. And IMO, having the money is more likely then having the manpower at the moment, considering they had to place three ships in extended readiness to find enough sailors to drive trucks around afghanistan.

Can’t see any real chance of RN ever having 30 odd escorts again unless something really serious kicks off.

Honestly, the extent on any future expansion of the RN would probably be the Acquiring of the final 6 cancelled T45’s, the ordering of 20 C1’s &/or C2’s to bring the escort numbers back up to the 32 in the SDR as well as the recommissioning of Invincible in the CVS Role with Ark Royal as a Dedicated LPH.

Would give:
2 CVS
2 LPH
12 T45
20 C1 & C2
2-4 LPD + LSD’s
20-30 Large OPV’s/Sloops replacing the MCM and OPV(H) fleets. In an ideal world additional ones would be purchased to replace the Archer’s and Scimitar’s at Gibraltar, Cyprus and in the RNR.

RFA expanded to support two simultaneous task groups of whatever the optimal size is considered, plus the normal operations around the world.

Invincible and Illustrious would be replaced by the two CVF’s, Ark Royal and Ocean by a pair of purpose built LPH’s.

It was my understanding that the intermediate range nuclear forces treaty (INF) had made it difficult to deploy land-based weapons of more than 300km range.

The UK is not a partner of INF, the treaty only affects the USA and the Soviet Union.
As a practical example: Same thing for Germany – which is why Germany kept its Pershings until 1991 while the US destroyed theirs in 1987 in line with INF.

Any other suitable RFA ships could also be made available for charter under the same contract. In some cases, this might mean charter only to navies of friendly countries.

The Point-class vessels (or rather the “residual capacity” of four ships) are currently under MCCE/MSSC (Multinational Sealift Steering Committee) authority, along with about a dozen other European sealift ships.
Just keep em in there.

As for other ships, i’d suggest instead simply adding another office to MCCE Operations, equal to the Sea Transport (ST) Office. Perhaps for “seabased logistics”, to coordinate certain available resources in that regard. And perhaps add some dry cargo/container capacity to ST.

And convert the PFI deal for the Point-class into outright purchase for the RFA (offsetting money already paid), but retaining Foreland Shipping to manage them & hire them out when not needed by the forces. Any other suitable RFA ships could also be made available for charter under the same contract. In some cases, this might mean charter only to navies of friendly countries.

LERX: A good point, it would certainly make sense to boost the tanker and support ship fleet. The obvious option there is to simply increase the procurement under the MARS project. We obviously need to buy sufficient fleet tankers and other support ships to support the carriers and amphibs. However, it might make sense to obtain some more of the “joint sea-based logistics” ships, i.e. the support ships aimed at supporting land forces ashore.

As on Richard Beedall’s excellent site, we can basically lay out the three basic missions for the MARS requirement:

– Fleet replenishment (fuel, ammunition and stores support for the fighting ships)
– Sea-based logistics (supporting land forces ashore, either near the beachhead or further inland)
– Forward aviation support (as on RB’s site, supporting deployed helicopters, but also potentially providing support to the fixed wing aircraft)

What about RFA?
If RN surface fleet expands, it would surely need more tanker/re-supply ships to support them.

What about some AGIs to pootle about in the Mediterranean & Black Seas & listen in on “the bad guys”? :diablo:

To resurrect this….

How about this as a possible alternate route of the RN if it had been chosen in the 1990’s?

Invincible going through a similar conversion to that which Ark has gone through, giving it more of an LPH focus and giving the RN its two LPH’s, while retaining Ark and Illustrious in Service as CVS.

Ocean being constructed with command facilities similar to those on the Albions, with Invincible and Ocean playing the role of Amphibious command ships, which given their LPH role would make sense as they would realistically be further offshore during an assault.

Rather then building the Albion class, 7-8 LSD’s are built instead of the 4 built, with 3-4 being in RN service and the remaining 4 in RFA service.

2000’s.

Decommission and sell off the T22B1 & 2’s but keep the B3’s. Keep the T23’s that were historically sold off in service, with their running costs paid for by placing T42 B1’s and some B2’s in reduced readiness, with them maintained by core crews, with the rest of the “crew” made up from reservists, that come aboard for at sea training once or twice a year as a whole crew, and several times more as partial crews.

Would mean in service:
2x CVS
1x CVS/LPH
1x LPH
8x LSD
4x T22B3
16xT23
4-6x T42

6-8x T42 in extended readiness with the crews being made up from reservists for exercises once or twice each year.

late 2000’s, early 2010’s
8x T45’s replacing the T42B3 and T22B3, with those ships replacing the earlier T42’s in extended readiness.
CVF under construction in service 2012 and 2014, with Invincible and Ocean replaced 2016 and 2018.
T23’s replaced by 16 C1’s with one entering service every year starting from 2017 with these ships rotating through extended readiness replacing T42B3’s and T22B3’s with the last 8 of these ships to be decommissioned remaining in reserve until the T45 is replaced.

Any idea why HMS Birmingham was decommissioned 6 years before any of the other T42’s?

That would make people look twice, also sounds like it would be too AAW biased to ever go through, though I think SAMPSON/S1850M should be the base standard on all new RN ships, I doubt anything other than dedicated air defence vessels will get a missile like the aster 30

Note the word fantasy.