Red Arrows future at risk

The Eye Of Sauron.

A lot of negative vibes on the Reds. However, as has been pointed-out, the demise of manned a/c has been wrongly forecast before. Drones have their place for sure, especially where you don’t want aircrew falling into the hands of rabid animals.

Not withstanding the above, we will still need Transport a/c. That means Tankers. We’ll need battlefield and transport Heli’s. All those need to be manned, and it all needs protecting. Drones have a limited ability to do this. Drones cannot think, they are just robotic zombies only as good as the data streamed back to the operator eating his lunch. Cut or interrupt that stream, – and they are flying scrap metal. Or plastic. Drones are not, and are unlikely ever, in the foreseeable future, to become sentient, so the need for manned a/c will remain.

Lastly, given to effectively complete absence of military experience across todays breed of career politicians, all the evidence points towards continued pointless foreign pointless ventures. No lessons have been learnt. Irrespective of how one feels about the politics of this, the fact is, that we are now entering out THIRD conflict in Iraq in as many decades. Whilst we are thus distracted by matter which we can do very little to affect, the Eye of Sauron to the East has been watching, and, given the weakened defences in Europe, his dark forces are stirring beyond Mirkwood.

There are some striking parallels between today, and the 1930’s. Appeasement, as we know, only buys time. How we choose to use that time dictates the outcome. In 1939 we were, just barely, ready. Today our politicians look out and see economics first, and military strategic matters somewhere down the list after appeasing the political opposition and E.U. Mr. Putin obviously sees thing in more or less the reverse order. Putin has been just as clear as Hitler was, and just as deluded. The Soviet Union wasn’t defeated militarily. It was defeated because it couldn’t sustain it’s military spending. The West outspent it. A small price to pay for peace.

I have a feeling that in terms of size, our armed forces are at about the low water mark. If Putin carries on the way he has been, then the Government will realise that, as ever, ’tis better to talk quietly, but carry a big stick. In that context, chopping the Reds will look like very small-beer indeed, in an environment where Defence spending may well rise dramatically.

Sentiment aside, I’m surprised the Arrows haven’t been chopped already…….and the proximity of the RAF 100th anniversary, I believe is all that is keeping the teams survival.
With the number of front line fast-jet RAF squadrons now down to a single figure total, and projected to be just 6/7 within a few years, and with almost everything else including training being contracted out – how a full time 9-ship formation display team can still be seen to be justified is astonishing frankly?
I read elsewhere that the contractorisation of the RAF is also why T.2 isn’t an option, as the T.2 fleet isn’t owned by the MOD, it’s PFI, and the PFI contract is written that their a/c cannot be used for displays. I beleive this also applys to the new Voyager fleet?

And I’m sure once the last WW2 RAF veteran has gone, the BBMF’s existance will become harder to justify as well.

All very sad what the RAF has been reduced to, even within my lifetime.

It depends on your definition of ‘not too distant future’. Didn’t Duncan Sandys make a similar prophecy back in 1957?

At some point in the not to distant future the RAF offensive capabilities will be made up of UAV drones flown by AI, should make quite an impressive display. The advancement of technology will finish the Red Arrows.

I assume once they have completed this some of the airframes held in storage at Shawbury may be up for grabs.?

TS

As David posted – many of the Airframes being majored are ex Shawbury,I wouldn’t hold your breath about any Hawks becoming available any time soon – They are extremely valuable airframes and also BAE seem to want to keep a tight leash on Hawks !Having said that of course anything is possible !

We may not seem to have as much of an aircraft industry as we did, but we are still making new Spitfires. Well, it’s a tradition innit…:p

Binbrook – a number of Shawbury storage airframes are and will join the programme.

Many of them do not have to contribute to the EU black financial hole ; )

Just as a matter of interest, how do other countries fund their display teams?

Hi All,
Just two points here:- What aircraft industry ? Hardly anything left now that does not have some form of foreign input.
Another JSF abbreviation Just So F$%*+ed.

Geoff.

Maybe a fruit bowl would be more apt if the JSF (Juicy Seagoing Fruit?) is truly a lemon…

I’m rather baffled as to why this thread should be listed under ‘Historic Aviation’… That aside, the RAF has (Almost.) always maintained some sort of display team. The point is that any airforce needs to keep a core of excellence. After all, they aren’t busdrivers. Keeping a team like the Reds going ensures that there is that core group of pilots with that top-notch skillset. All the other benefits are probably secondary to that.

I’m just old enough to remember the Black Arrows…….the Yellowjacks….and their subsequent rebirth for many years with the Gnats and a repaint. The Black Arrows were by FAR the most impressive. The look, the sound…..exquisite.

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/black-arrows-last-show

Maybe we could build a dozen new Spits and combine the BBMF and the aerobatic team. Seafires perhaps, – then we’d at least have some a/c for the daft carriers since that chimera, the JSF, has inevitably turned into a vastly expensive lemon. They’ll soon be wishing they’d fitted deck-gear to those carriers…..:stupid:

Smirky, it’s actually a larger combat formation than the Reds. Everyone concentrates on the GRs but remember there are CH47s at Cyprus…and there are more DFC holders flying CH47s than everything else added together over the past decade…combat is a lot more than dropping PGMs from FL200 in uncontested airspace.

Re the Reds, I hear talk of a delayed OSD – possibly rolled up with 100 Sqn and RN needs to provide a smaller more sustainable fleet.

Unfortunately the Arrows aren’t much of a promotional sales benefit nowadays, flying a 40-year-old design in the face of M346s and T-50s. Perhaps some top-up orders to old faithfuls.

RAF recruitment is consistently over-subscribed, particularly in the ‘sexy’ trades like driver, airframe. So any ( debatable ) loss of recruitment volume from disbanding the Arrows would in my opinion be of little consequence. Might actually made the load easier for AFCOs, since applicants would tend to be those with a deep interest in the forces and aviation rather than ‘jets are cool!’ types.

I assume once they have completed this some of the airframes held in storage at Shawbury may be up for grabs.?

TS

Baz – I believe nearer 40 . Certainly the programme has been underway for about a year now.

We all love to see them but let’s not forget what it is all for -if I may suggest

1. to promote Britain
2. to promote the RAF
3. to promote excellence within the RAF and to aid recruitment
4. to promote the British aircraft industry

You can judge for yourselves how many of the above remain valid and let’s not forget that we have just deployed a smaller combat formation to Iraq than the display team.

Maybe they need to re-equip with the Gnat – they seem to be healthy all these years after retirement!

That sounds like a good idea to me 🙂

If you bother to read the thread instead of flinging assertions around you’ll see the story is not about defence cuts nor did it originate in the media, least of all the Sun.

Every time there is a defence cut or review this story rears its ugly head, often reported in the Sun newspaper amongst others and all over the internet . I have also seen it reported on the TV a few times as well.