Red Flag-How would the F-22 Raptor fare against the F-35 Lightning II?

But why do the F-35 fans always point to the LPI modes of the radar then? The F-22 has EA capability

Because fighters radar are very helpful against most targets.However, VLO targets in jamming condition is not one of them

and could have whatever capability the F-35 has with proper funding

With infinite money , you can do whatever you want. But obviously funding is limited, hence the reason F-22 doesnot even have IRST or HMD eventhough these are technically flexible

Dedicated IRST work in precise wavelength for maximum performance

Hmmm, take for example OLS-35, FSO work in 3-5 microns wavelength , exactly the same as EOTS ( ofcourse EOTS also have extra CCD and SWIR sensor)
Pirate , AAS-42 works in 8-10 microns wavelength , which is similar to DAS. So i dont see much different there either

They are also optimized for fast scanning

This doesnot make sense. There is no real reason why a “pure” IRST ( AAS-42 , OLS-35 , or FSO ..etc) should be able to scan faster than a “not pure” IRST like EOTS. In fact ,many “pure” IRST such as AAS-42 or Tiger eye or OLS-35 are scanning array , which mean they would definitely search the FoV at much slower rate compared to staring array like on DAS or EOTS.
Moreover, if some IRST actually scan faster than EOTS , then how much faster are they ? 1% ? 2 % or 10% ?.

The Advanced EOTS may approach the capabilities of a pure IRST, but probably not equate them. The regular EOTS is probably significantly inferior

IMHO there is literally zero evidence to support that assessment.I can easily say a pure IRST is significantly inferior to regular EOTS and there would be equal chance of my assessment to be correct

The F-35 can stay subsonic, but that gives the F-22 a better ability to escape if it flies in supersonic. I don’t think it would need to fly at mach 1.7 either. Launching in supersonic would also give its AIM-9Xs a better BVR range

You can’t really escape from something you can’t see.Moreover going faster generate more IR signature as well, not always a good thing

Sticking with reality is accepting the fact that the F-35 has cost 20 billion more than it should have, thus severly reducing the funding that could have been allocated to upgrading other aircraft, right?

May be it is , but that is not the question of the thread

“Red Flag-How would the F-22 Raptor fare against the F-35 Lightning II?”

No one here knows. The end.

I´ll get me coat

F-35 has more IR reduction measures in my opinion, but F-22 can carry more missiles internally

Like not needing its afterburner to maintain supersonic speed?

Fighter radar would be pretty much irrelevance if you were to face off against target with radar cross section of that size. Especially when F-35 has jamming as well.

But why do the F-35 fans always point to the LPI modes of the radar then? The F-22 has EA capability, and could have whatever capability the F-35 has with proper funding.

TBH , until now , no one can provide any figure to prove that a “pure” IRST ( such as OLS-35 , FSO ..etc ) would offer advantage in detection range over FLIR/IRST ( such as EOTS ) . And if F-22 was to have an IRST , it would likely be variation of EOTS

Dedicated IRST work in precise wavelength for maximum performance. They are also optimized for fast scanning. The Advanced EOTS may approach the capabilities of a pure IRST, but probably not equate them. The regular EOTS is probably significantly inferior.

Why would F-35 use afterburner if the fight is likely to be short range ( VLO vs VLO assets ) ?. Moreover, if we go with reality then there isn’t any plan to put IRST on F-22 in near future either.

The F-35 can stay subsonic, but that gives the F-22 a better ability to escape if it flies in supersonic. I don’t think it would need to fly at mach 1.7 either. Launching in supersonic would also give its AIM-9Xs a better BVR range.

Sticking with reality is accepting the fact that the F-35 has cost 20 billion more than it should have, thus severly reducing the funding that could have been allocated to upgrading other aircraft, right?

In BVR the F-22 is likely to detect the F-35 first thanks to its larger radar and the fact that the F-35 carries external WVR missiles.

Also, the F-22’s IRST ( assuming a small part of the F-35’s cost overrun had been spent on F-22 upgrades ) would detect the F-35 first thanks to the fact that it is a pure IRST, and also that the F-35 has to use its reheat to maintain supersonic speed. The F-22 probably wouldn’t need to fly very fast to have the first shot with its AIM-120D, so that would reduce its IR sig. Also the F-35 won’t have the 120D before 2020-2022 or something like that, giving the F-22 a substantial advantage until then.

Also the F-35 carries more missile, so can afford double or even triple shots. Its IRST can guide the missiles to remain stealthy. The F-35’s is likely to detect the missile launch so I would guess it may be able to counter attack relatively quickly, but the F-22’s missiles are already under way when it starts shooting, and can achieve a higher speed. The F-22 being stealthy, it would be hard for the F-35’s missiles to get sufficiently close to get a lock, especially if the F-35 has been shot down first about 10 seconds before it has the opportunity to do so.

In WVR, if both have an HMS, it’s probably about even. One ihas the DAS and the other one has more maneuvrability ( assuming the F-22 is not upgraded with the DAS, but the F-22 could well have been upgraded with it, if a part of the F-35 cost overrun had been spent on that ).

F-35 has more IR reduction measures in my opinion, but F-22 can carry more missiles internally

In BVR the F-22 is likely to detect the F-35 first thanks to its larger radar and the fact that the F-35 carries external WVR missiles

Fighter radar would be pretty much irrelevance if you were to face off against target with radar cross section of that size. Especially when F-35 has jamming as well.

Also, the F-22’s IRST ( assuming a small part of the F-35’s cost overrun had been spent on F-22 upgrades ) would detect the F-35 first thanks to the fact that it is a pure IRST

TBH , until now , no one can provide any figure to prove that a “pure” IRST ( such as OLS-35 , FSO ..etc ) would offer advantage in detection range over FLIR/IRST ( such as EOTS ) . And if F-22 was to have an IRST , it would likely be variation of EOTS

and also that the F-35 has to use its reheat to maintain supersonic speed. The F-22 probably wouldn’t need to fly very fast to have the first shot with its AIM-120D so that would reduce its IR sig.Also the F-35 won’t have the 120D before 2020-2022 or something like that, giving the F-22 a substantial advantage until then

Why would F-35 use afterburner if the fight is likely to be short range ( VLO vs VLO assets ) ?. Moreover, if we go with reality then there isn’t any plan to put IRST on F-22 in near future either.

In BVR the F-22 is likely to detect the F-35 first thanks to its larger radar and the fact that the F-35 carries external WVR missiles.

Also, the F-22’s IRST ( assuming a small part of the F-35’s cost overrun had been spent on F-22 upgrades ) would detect the F-35 first thanks to the fact that it is a pure IRST, and also that the F-35 has to use its reheat to maintain supersonic speed. The F-22 probably wouldn’t need to fly very fast to have the first shot with its AIM-120D, so that would reduce its IR sig. Also the F-35 won’t have the 120D before 2020-2022 or something like that, giving the F-22 a substantial advantage until then.

Also the F-35 carries more missile, so can afford double or even triple shots. Its IRST can guide the missiles to remain stealthy. The F-35’s is likely to detect the missile launch so I would guess it may be able to counter attack relatively quickly, but the F-22’s missiles are already under way when it starts shooting, and can achieve a higher speed. The F-22 being stealthy, it would be hard for the F-35’s missiles to get sufficiently close to get a lock, especially if the F-35 has been shot down first about 10 seconds before it has the opportunity to do so.

In WVR, if both have an HMS, it’s probably about even. One ihas the DAS and the other one has more maneuvrability ( assuming the F-22 is not upgraded with the DAS, but the F-22 could well have been upgraded with it, if a part of the F-35 cost overrun had been spent on that ).

If it was trivial as you suggest, then we wouldn’t see specialized IR systems at all. In fact often attack pods have multiple separate cameras. LANTIRN, for example, has FLIR in two separate pods – one with fixed wide FoV field, other with zoomable optics for narrow view. LITENING has two TV cameras and one FLIR sensor, and so on. They wouldn’t bother with multiple cameras if they could just do all that with zoomable optics.

LANTIRN has 2 pod : 1 is targeting pod and the other is navigating pod.The navigating pod has a terrain following radar and a thermal camera for short range navigation . Basically a night vision system that help pilot look outside , while the targeting pod help pilot look at target at distance target at the sametime.

LITENING has 1 pod only and all the CCD and FLIR sensors are included in a single pod just like Sniper-XR.

“that fluffy thing in the middle of the ocean surely has got to be a boat ?
i’ll better have a look outside the window and see what it is !”

A boat is significant smaller than an aircraft

Vs

Moreover , he also said that DAS can identify a Jeep in desert at close range.

DDM-NG has zero capability to detect and track enemy aircraft like an IRST. The reason why they tested a MICA shot, they needed another aircraft to datalink radar info.

“that fluffy thing in the middle of the ocean surely has got to be a boat ?
i’ll better have a look outside the window and see what it is !”

Would have bet good money that Oblig would pull out one of his five “go to” quotes. This is despite constantly being told he is confusing the DAS functions with HMD imagery.

1. No, see DDM-NG
2. Who would actually claim that they can track a space rocket at 900NM except some company desperate to find positives to sell the lemon of a plane they’re working on?
3. It was not a negative. You claimed that it’s the only MAWS in existence capable of doing it.

Anything else, I still have some time to waste tonight.

Nic

You’ve wasted plenty already. Kindly point out where DDM-NG is tied into the MDPU for processing. Also, how it is fused with OSF and radar. Point out it tracking function with HMD.

Can’t do this? Then they are not comparable systems.

DDM-NG does not send the video images to the avionics. It is a drop in replacement for the previous system and only provides more accurate detection and tracking due to it’s improved sensors. They will have to upgrade the datalinks and avionics before the rest of the avionics can use the raw video image feeds. This is a similar issue with the F-22 which also uses IIR based MAWS but the avionics only gets track data from the sensors, not the raw video feed.

“You can’t prove a negative” is the same as saying “The absence of evidence is the evidence of absence”. In other words, they have never claimed that it was a feature so it’s safe to say that it’s not a feature. This is in the same vein as my long held belief that the F-35 did not have a towed decoy. It was not until this year that BAE gave us the details to the system and looking back at budget docs shows that it was in Block2B and part of the USMC’s IOC.

Here is what has been published about the Mig-35’s SOAR

SOAR – System consist of two stations, one on engine’s gondola, second on the top of the fuselage, behind the cabin. It detects rocket launches and shows the direction from which the missile is coming. The threat is also signalled by vioce. It can detect Stinger/Igla from 10km, a2a missiles from 30km, big surface to air missiles from 50km. SOAR was also developed in NII PP Institute.

Info on DDM-NG

The concept behind DDM NG is the ability to detect incoming attacking missiles from any direction and angle of attack with regard to the host aircraft. It will succeed the current DDM system on the Rafale as a “form, fit and function” replacement. DDM NG incorporates a new infrared array detector which enhances performance with regard to the range at which a missile firing will be detected, offers improved rejection of false alarms and gives an angular localisation capability which will be compatible with the future use of Directional Infra Red Counter Measures (DIRCM). With two sensors, each equipped with a fish-eye lens, DDM NG provides a spherical field of view around the aircraft.

http://www.mbda-systems.com/press-releases/even-greater-protection-for-the-rafale-thanks-to-ddm-ng/
Note lack of any new feature or mention of video imagery.

The Eurofighter does not even have an IR based MAWS (tranche 3 maybe???) so no contest there.

1] providing video dont do anything for the sensor to detect
2] not everyone got a ballistic missile handy, and even less got them in abundance to fling one just for the sake of it
3] its not proven either way, and likely will never be,
hence, i dont think theres a difference in MAWS sensors detection ability,
unlike yourself that are certain any other sensor is inferior

Simple:
1. It’s the first IIR based MAWS to provide video to the avionics
2. Nobody else has claimed that they can.
3. You can’t prove a negative.

1. No, see DDM-NG
2. Who would actually claim that they can track a space rocket at 900NM except some company desperate to find positives to sell the lemon of a plane they’re working on?
3. It was not a negative. You claimed that it’s the only MAWS in existence capable of doing it.

Anything else, I still have some time to waste tonight.

Nic

And you know this how ?

Simple:
1. It’s the first IIR based MAWS to provide video to the avionics
2. Nobody else has claimed that they can.
3. You can’t prove a negative.

lol, no, i sure dont require that,
i dont think its the only MAWS that can track a space rocket under power tho

ed: and BIO, loose is what my belt isnt at this point,
lose is what happened to my money on my last woman

Good catch. I’m in a habit of typing , posting and then coming back and making edits :).

Instead of guessing, try Googling and provide a link if you find it.

instead of guessing, how about you try google that any other MAWS cant ?

What do you mean it’s the only MAWS in existence that can even do that?

And you know this how ?

i dont think its the only MAWS that can track a space rocket under power tho

Instead of guessing, try Googling and provide a link if you find it.