Religion and the Battle of Britain

Preventative medicine costs money.

Isn’t the NHS philosophy to only spend money for actual conditions, not for conditions that might not come to pass??

It isn’t possible to be circumcised on the NHS anymore. The view is that the dangers of the operation outway any health benefits.

I thought it was widely understood that AIDS is a greater threat to the uncircumcised?

Moggy

When I was young officialdom seemed to require that you were either C of E, Catholic or Jewish. There were no other options and certainly not atheist. A number of friends who were Quakers or Methodists still went down as C of E. I once asked my late father-in-law, who was a Muslim and served in convoys as a cook in the Indian Ocean (and who was torpedoed twice by Japanese submarines), whether he was asked about his religion. He was categorised as Jewish!

It isn’t possible to be circumcised on the NHS anymore. The view is that the dangers of the operation outway any health benefits. Parents are still permitted to have their boys circumcised if they choose and are given the phone number of a local rabbi or imam. I understand that our local hospital, which is Northwick Park, regularly treats infants for infections after such operations.

Regards

There were exceptions, though, notably the transfer of American PoWs from Stalag IX-B to the slave labour camp at Berga. Most of them were Jewish, and around 20 per cent of them died in just 50 days.

Wasnt there a docu-drama about that a few years ago? Remember seeing something on one of the Sky ch’s ?

On the eastern front it was a different tale. The Soviet Union had not signed up to the Geneva Convention and from the Nazi point of view that gave them free rein to do what they liked with Soviet PoWs (and vice versa). So many of them died in camps at German hands that the percentage of Jews is hardly relevant. They all suffered horribly, and the Jews possibly more than most.

I have just finished reading “Boldness be my friend ” by Richard Pape which gives some really horrendous images of what it was like in some Russian POW camps.

But it wasnt just the Nazi’s , I didnt know untill a few years ago that American POW’s “liberated” by the Russians were held back by them at the end of the war and some never made it home.

“A bit difficult to hide circumcision, though…”

In the U. S., circumcision, at least since the 1930s–I was born in 1936 and am circumcised–had little to do with being or not being Jewish. It in fact is looked upon by some as the mark of at least some middle-class enlightenment, i.e. parents who followed what at the time was considered good medical advice, while the uncircumcised were the kids who didn’t have such an advantage, if indeed it was an advantage.

Me, I don’t give a…foreskin.

A bit difficult to hide circumcision, though. Obviously not a 100 per cent indicator of being Jewish, but in the fevered wartime atmosphere it could be difficult to explain away, I would imagine.

Even in the 1930s, circumcision was moderately common in the US regardless of religion… the medical community believed it promoted ease of personal hygiene, thus reducing incidence of disease and the associated medical costs.

By the time I was born in 1962, parents pretty much had to specifically ask for their male infant to NOT be circumcised.

I’ve done some Googling and I suppose I’ve answered my own question.
Jewish PoWs from the Western allies were treated fairly well, although sometimes segregated within the camps. There were exceptions, though, notably the transfer of American PoWs from Stalag IX-B to the slave labour camp at Berga. Most of them were Jewish, and around 20 per cent of them died in just 50 days.
On the eastern front it was a different tale. The Soviet Union had not signed up to the Geneva Convention and from the Nazi point of view that gave them free rein to do what they liked with Soviet PoWs (and vice versa). So many of them died in camps at German hands that the percentage of Jews is hardly relevant. They all suffered horribly, and the Jews possibly more than most.

A bit difficult to hide circumcision, though. Obviously not a 100 per cent indicator of being Jewish, but in the fevered wartime atmosphere it could be difficult to explain away, I would imagine.

At the risk of drifting somewhat off-topic, are there any records as to how Allied Jewish PoWs were treated by the Nazis?

I would think it highly unlikely they carried anything to ID them as Jewish if operating over Enemy Terratory so probably ended up in the standard POW camp. If they had been discovered to be Jewish I think theres little doulbt they have gone the same way as the 6 million others.

I doubt that the term ‘ethnicity’ ever even entered military brains at the time, nor for many years thereafter.

I really doubt if the word had even been invented by the start of WW2…if you care to believe Wikipedia is was invented in the 50s when the world started to become obsessed with a persons’ ethnic origin.

Nowadays the meaning is skewed to refer to minority groups within a given society(EG:Arabs in the UK) …we never hear of the ethnicity of the English(the majority) being refered to.

At the risk of drifting somewhat off-topic, are there any records as to how Allied Jewish PoWs were treated by the Nazis?

I agree, I don’t believe that religion or belief is a necessary concept in this case, or as has been quite rightly pointed out, for WW2 as a whole. I find it a bit upsetting to hear the author of the article claim the the UK has chosen to deliberately hide this information. After all, was it ever relevant in the first place?

Regards;
Steve

I doubt that the term ‘ethnicity’ ever even entered military brains at the time, nor for many years thereafter.

The most frequent reason for asking about religion was to establish eligibility for the (C of E) Sunday morning church parades!

The term “fall out Roman Catholics and Jews” was a favourite with many a Flight Sergeant, as it gave him an excellent source of ‘volunteers’ for cookhouse and other less popular duties!

I think that I may have been quoted slightly out of context. The quote should be read in the context of the preceding sentence relating to ethnicity. I’m not sure that a claim for ethnicity would be made of Christianity in the same way as it is for Judaism. However whilst this dialogue on the subject is interesting, it does not get away from the fact that religion, or even ethnicity, is an odd concept to employ in categorising airmen who served during the Battle of Britain. I doubt that, unlike in modern times, categorising by ethnicity, in particular, was an accepted or even viewed as a necessary concept then.

As many friends and acquaintances have told me, you don’t need to go anywhere near the synagogue or the rabbi to be Jewish!

You can say much the same about almost any religion I guess.

In particular that statement would apply to the vast majority of CofE Christians.

I have always seen CofE as an undemanding religion that one can pick up when it is needed and put down when not needed (often for very long periods).

If you ask the question of 1000 people in the UK ” what is your religion ?” the majority will say CofE …..then ask if the are regular church goers and 99% will say no.

Personally I don’t think the question of nationality, religion or ethnicity really matters re the BoB(or WW2 as a whole) – good enough that they all fought for a common cause.

Steve – Thanks – I apologise for mentioning it..

No issues- just being mischievous.

Anyway – no talking about money, politics or religion.

So as we have covered religion – how about money in the B of B

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11951642

At least in the UK it’s fairly simple

If only that were the case!

Steve – Interesting that you put Christians and then Catholics as separate religions.

Any reason as pre reformation all Christians were Catholics.

Hi FarlamAirframes;

Afraid there is no reason other than ignorance as to why I seperated Christians and Catholics! I’m not a religious person, so wouldn’t have known anything about pre reformation etc!

I was just curious as to why this author wanted to make such an issue of the religious beliefs of the Battle of Britain pilots, when surely it doesn’t really matter what beliefs they held, except that they were fighting and dying for a common cause.

Regards;
Steve

Many would disagree, as there were non-Catholic forms of Christianity throughout the entire span of time from a certain carpenter’s ministry to current.

At least in the UK it’s fairly simple, whereas in the US it’s ridiculous. I live in a town of about 140,000 & we have over 70 different christian varieties…
My doorbell is almost worn out…

Steve – Interesting that you put Christians and then Catholics as separate religions.

Any reason as pre reformation all Christians were Catholics.

Many would disagree, as there were non-Catholic forms of Christianity throughout the entire span of time from a certain carpenter’s ministry to current.

Or are you saying that all Orthodox are/were not Christians?

And what about the Celtic church, which was the dominant form of Christianity in the British Isles until the Synod of Whitby* in 664 (and which remained dominant in Ireland for nearly a hundred more years)?

Or the Coptic Christians?

Or the many other early branches that developed in distant lands (and some in Europe) that never gave allegiance to the Pope (some of which still exist)?

* in which the question of whether the Roman (Catholic) or Celtic** forms of worship and church organization should be made “official” in the Kingdom of Northumbria was considered and decided in favor of Rome… a decision soon followed by the other British kingdoms.

** based on traditions predating both the Council of Nicea and the formation of the Catholic church in Rome.