Replica Spitfire crash in Germany

Most here are UK-Based.

It is pretty difficult to plummet to earth anywhere in this tiny country without at least twenty or thirty people filming you on their cellphones. The only survival gear you really need is a credit card and your phone. I carry a GPS-based 406 PLB anyway as I own one. Worn around my neck over water, and stowed over land.

Moggy

If you are trusting your life to an ELT, you probably trust your retirement to lottery tickets, they are that reliable. When I fly cross country, I carry a backpack with survival gear, MRE meals, and water. You need to know what your plane is equipped with as far as the ELT, some are designed to be removed and taken with you if you walk away from a crash, Do you know where it is located ? how it is mounted ? where is the mobile antenna for the ELT ?

ELT’s or PLB’s (Personal Locator Beacon) are only mandarory on EASA aircraft not Permit aircraft in the UK. Still a good idea particularly for a water crossing.

ELT’s ( Emergency Locaton Transmitters ) are now mandatory Robert, so hopefully you will not be exposed for long.

Slightly off topic but still about safety. You should think about post crash survival. You may crash well away from habitation or a road, so do you have suitable footwear on. The outside temperature may be very cold or very hot and very dry or wet, so do you have suitable body coverings should the unthinkable happen, to assist you to survive.

Moggy,

As far as I am aware Beaufort and Ballyclare are separate companies:-

Thanks for that clarification.

Moggy

TonyT: The same can be said for NOT washing some fabrics, The washing gets all the crap out & restores the fire resistance.

I’m doing pyro at an airshow next weekend, was supposed to pick up my “safety Tshirt* today but they were a few short. Looks like the weather won’t be the usual 100deg & severe clear so the BDU’s are coming out retirement

If you’re involved in a fire, even wearing two layers (nomex/cotton, aramid/gortex), gloves and boots there’s still a good chance you will receive burns to areas of the body, however they will normally be classed as survivable. If you’re not wearing FR kit you’ll come off a lot worse. I have been involved with most of the kit other posters have mentioned for many years, I have done burn tests on thermo dummies and seen the results of the various materials and configurations after real crashes/ejections as well. Flying clothing is always going to be a compromise of protection, weight, durability, comfort, cost, etc (I cannot comment on ground based I.e tank crew FR kit but would image the same goes). It is designed to give the maximum amount of protection whilst meeting or exceeding a rigorous set of standards/requirements. Yes, years ago the older generation of suits were repaired using nylon thread, but they are now repaired using at aramid thread (FR thread). Nomex can be laundered, it is not an ‘application’ like water proofing a tent, but a fabric, various weights are available. I agree with the above poster though, you only get one body, protect it, don’t buy second hand. I’m constantly amazed that there are still people out there who think nothing of splashing hard cash on an aeroplane but won’t do the same for their own protection. “Yeah, it’s great innit, I got it off e-bay..”.

Plenty of fire retardant clothing available from the auto racing company’s if desired. including underwear and just plain suit’s or jacket and trousers

Merino wool (100%) base layers are used by firefighters and military due to the natural flame retardancy of the wool. It doesn’t lose it’s effectiveness after repeated washes, has natural anti-bacterial properties and keeps you warm when it’s cold and cool when it’s warm.

The other thing you have to remember certain materials may be fire resistant but washing reduces that, hence when aircraft seat covers are washed they are supposed to be retested to ensure the resistance is still satisfactory, hence extra cover material tends to come with the batch and these are washed alongside the covers and then a portion tested.

You stood around to watch her in agony or to watch her humiliation as she was partially exposed to you all?

Actually as the exercise rightly stopped there was nothing else we could do and we were concerned for her as we knew her, the meat wagon brigade were dealing with it. Humiliation was not her first priority and you cannot just go wandering off away from the aircraft, end of the day we all had a job to do and we were doing it..

The latest coveralls issued to crewman are 93% Nomex, 5% Kevlar, and 2% Antistatique.

Scotavia,

I’m afraid I am not a firefighter – I’m nowhere near brave enough!!

Moggy,

As far as I am aware Beaufort and Ballyclare are separate companies:-

RFD Beaufort – Commercial division is listed at Kingsway, Dunmurry, Belfast BT17 9AF.
IIRC, they also have premises at Birkenhead.

They are part of the Survitec Group. Interestingly, photos on their website show some very high tech flying clothing; photos are taken at Newtownards airfield in Co. Down!

Ballyclare Special Products Ltd. – address was 44, Ballynure Road, Ballyclare, Co. Antrim – not sure if they are still there?

Ballyclare’s website states about their current aircrew flame retardant coverall, which appears to be a MK.16, – “NOMEX® brand fibre cannot be washed or worn away; as proved by durability tests which showed no deterioration of performance or durability (fabric strength, dimensional stability, and appearance)… even after 200 washes*.”

While this may be true of the current design and materials, the same may not apply to older versions. Another reason not to buy obsolete ex-military kit….

Our suits (which gave far superior protection than a MK.16) were dumped, compulsorily, after 25 washes, whether they were damaged or not…..

I should point out that I am in no way linked to either company; I just want to ensure than people are not lulled into a false sense of security by buying second hand kit (with an unknown history) that has been discarded by the military.

Beaufort & Ballyclare, who produced the Mk.16 suits for the RAF …

Lots of sense in the post from Sky Dancer.

Just a teeny correction, if my googling serves me well the manufacturer is (or was) Beaufort. Ballyclare is one of their garments.

Moggy

Interesting Sky Dancer, my flying suit is more of a photo kit bits carry all and the protection secondary. That fire event sounds horrific, were you a fire fighter? This thread is a reminder of hazards around flying which reminds me to keep taking care.

Hi Folks,

It’s not often that I am moved to reply to a thread, but this is one of those rare occasions.

Firstly, thoughts are with the pilot and his family.

Secondly, I may be able to add some info that may be of benefit.

Back in the early 1980’s I had to opportunity to log some hours in Bulldogs, and very agreeable it was. At that stage the Mk.14A aircrew coverall/flying suit/grow-bag was starting to become widespread issue. One article I read in “Air Clues” really struck a cord with me, and was an article on the Mk.14A flying suit and compared it to its predecessor, the Mk.11. Very alarmingly, it was stated that in tests the Mk.11 suit had shown resistance to fire for 1.3 seconds.

The new, super-duper Mk.14A, the RAF’s first NOMEX suit, lasted 3.2 seconds.

A flying career was not to be, ending up in a different line of work. This later led to me wearing a one-piece, fire resistant coverall, and very comfortable it was too. It was a double layer garment, consisting of Gortex inner layer and a Nomex outer layer – specifically designed to repel flaming fluids. It was stated as being resistant to fire for between 8 and 10 seconds, if worn with the compulsory long sleeved top and bottoms, which I wore religiously.

On one occasion a colleague and I became engulfed in a fire ball which literally burnt the suit off him. His body armour saved him from injury, but I received minor burns even though my suit remained relatively intact.

At the time, our suits were regarded as being state of the art. I tried to obtain some Nomex thread from our supply people to repair small rips etc. in the field when deployed, and was given a small 7 inch length of nomex thread which was stated to be worth about £12.

Having worn Mk.14 flying suits for about 3 years, and more advanced FR clothing for many years I would make the following points:-

1. Aircrew flying suits are not as protective as you think. They are definitely not stitched together with Nomex thread.
2. Wearing at least two layers of clothing is ESSENTIAL, i.e. a fire resistant outer, and a fire resistant underlayer too. I was wearing a full cotton underlayer when I burned, and will NEVER wear a cotton underlayer again. There are plenty of companies out there who produce tactical clothing, and offer Nomex underclothes (long sleeved shirt, bottoms, undies & even socks – all in a light weight to prevent dehydration). This is definitely the way to go.
3. Never purchase a used, ex-military flying suit. It has been disposed off for a reason – it is obsolete. The original Mk.14/Mk.14A/Mk.14B was made of Nomex, later versions like the Mk.16 were made of, I believe of Nomex III, a more modern, improved material. (I don’t know which fabric the new FACS in made off)

Beaufort & Ballyclare, who produced the Mk.16 suits for the RAF, do the same suit in navy blue and black, which I believe offers a smart appearance, giving you a degree of fire protection (if worn with suitable underclothes) without making the wearer appear a total Walt like wearing a used, worn out, green ex-military suit would.

A U.S. company, Gibson & Barnes, produce suits in the U.S. military CWU-27 style, in a wide variety of colours. Just be aware than Nomex is available in three weights, and the lightest weight should be immediately ignored unless you intend to fly in the Middle East.

All this sounds expensive, and it is, but what price do you put on your own safety?

Hi. I have been away for a while, and I came back intending to apologise for derailing a thread. I am glad that there are others out there who have issues with the automatic attacks on folk wearing protective kit.
May I now summarise?
1- always fly as safe as you can
2- fire only respects fuel, and that may include you
3- in a fire cotton or nomex is way better than nylon
4- in Germany there is a broken airframe and an injured pilot. Aluminium can be replaced if you want to, but human flesh is much more tricky- as I remember in my former day job. I wish the pilot and his friends and family all my best wishes.

Personally I never fly an open cockpit without a Bonedome on and it saved my live once . Many enthusiasts criticise and say, it doesn’t look right. Tough, it’s my head and I only have one. Most people I know now wear some form of hard helmet while flying warbird or vintage open type a/c and personally those that wear only a leather helmet, for the look! Are fools !
Sadly I have friends who may still be heard had they been wearing a hard hat !!

That burst of flame reminds me a little of the Super Corsair crash at Phoenix.