Restoration to flying status..what education?

However I have to disagree with Lindys Lad, currently you do not have to hold a part 66 to certify these aircraft. Until September 2008 you can still certify under BCAR A/B/C/D licences. Whilst at AV, EASA conducted a number of visits to watch the operation for the purposes of Annexing aircraft (warbird) types. The effects of which will come in after 09/2008, hopefully not for the detriment of the restoration movement.

Sorry, forgot about BCARS still being around — you’ll have to convert to part 66 soon though! I’m a fitter, so what do I know…lol

Sheety fitters are in high demand and are well looked after by companies!

Yes, indeed – I’ll give you a try, but you may have to move!

Bruce

Bruce,I might take you up on that later on. Moving is no big deal. I have to finish some winter projects for my customers before I can shut the door,though… Thanks for even wanting to give me a try. 🙂

if you are a good sheet metal worker, and able to produce one-of items to high tolerances, you should have no problems finding interest.

When I was doing race car fabrication I usually had to make several identical parts to high tolerances… making just one or two of something is almost a treat. 🙂

Although it might be easier, if you had some actual aircraft expirence, like maybe joining a volunteer restoration group.

I have. 🙂 That’s what spurred me on to consider doing it fulltime..

if you are a good sheet metal worker, and able to produce one-of items to high tolerances, you should have no problems finding interest.

Yes, indeed – I’ll give you a try, but you may have to move!

Bruce

No,not yet. Thought I would see what respones I got first and if full certification was needed I would not bother them before I had that under my belt. Cliff Spinks told me to contact ARCo,I might do that too,I need a career change and why not try to use my skills for something I have loved since age 5… “Might” come in handy later on with my project… (read: longterm,if we even find the thing(s) so we have a project going :p .)

if you are a good sheet metal worker, and able to produce one-of items to high tolerances, you should have no problems finding interest.

Although it might be easier, if you had some actual aircraft expirence, like maybe joining a volunteer restoration group.

have you tried talking to any of the companies?

No,not yet. Thought I would see what respones I got first and if full certification was needed I would not bother them before I had that under my belt. Cliff Spinks told me to contact ARCo,I might do that too,I need a career change and why not try to use my skills for something I have loved since age 5… “Might” come in handy later on with my project… (read: longterm,if we even find the thing(s) so we have a project going :p .)

You are right, there seems to be more commonality between the motor racing industry and the skill sets required in traditional aircraft manufacture, required for later day restorations.

I started out as a Formula One engine builder, where working to high accuracy on small batches was common place. Practically everything was hand made, and hand assembled. Replace “wood composites” with “carbon composites”, and there you have your similarities! I managed to get this job, because of previous experience at my local airfield working with, and learning from the older types (aircraft and people) 😀

Today overhaul shops are generally not allowed to fabricate “complex” structure parts. Anything with more than two bends is a spare part.

When no spare parts are available, its often solved by combining simple fabricated parts, to replace the “complex” part.

Although there are still places where sheet metal workers learn (and use) the good old tools and skills.

The best metal workers (bending, shaping, reforming and detail work) is unlikely to work in the aviation industry. They might learn it, but very few are able to keep it up.

It is not fast enough, and the production companies want to control the quality of complex parts. In GA they might be less strict.

Common skill sets

I personally know sheet metal workers, who have gone from aircraft to the racing industry, so the kinda skill (the one-of fabrication) you need is close or identical.

Since alot of restoration is metal work, my guess is that you would be in high demand. Aluminium shaping is a skill thats slowly dissapearing from the aviation buisiness, and ANY warbird project needs people who can do that.

have you tried talking to any of the companies?

You are right, there seems to be more commonality between the motor racing industry and the skill sets required in traditional aircraft manufacture, required for later day restorations.

I started out as a Formula One engine builder, where working to high accuracy on small batches was common place. Practically everything was hand made, and hand assembled. Replace “wood composites” with “carbon composites”, and there you have your similarities! I managed to get this job, because of previous experience at my local airfield working with, and learning from the older types (aircraft and people) 😀

So knowing how to do sheet metal work (I have been working as a custom/race car builder/fabricator…shaped just about anything from scratch…done mostly aluminium shaping) and worked extensivly on engines ( I’m currenty working as a full-time race engine builder in my own shop) I can build/restore just about anything as long as I have a certified technician signing it off? 🙂

I personally know sheet metal workers, who have gone from aircraft to the racing industry, so the kinda skill (the one-of fabrication) you need is close or identical.

Since alot of restoration is metal work, my guess is that you would be in high demand. Aluminium shaping is a skill thats slowly dissapearing from the aviation buisiness, and ANY warbird project needs people who can do that.

have you tried talking to any of the companies?

So knowing how to do sheet metal work (I have been working as a custom/race car builder/fabricator…shaped just about anything from scratch…done mostly aluminium shaping) and worked extensivly on engines ( I’m currenty working as a full-time race engine builder in my own shop) I can build/restore just about anything as long as I have a certified technician signing it off? 🙂

Absolutely.. & having personally worked on one particular warbird that had been thru an Annual only 2 weeks before I saw it & then sold I can tell you that there are jackasses out there who will sign off just about anything…& that particular Tx based person is very well known in the US….

I’m pretty sure his inspection consisted solely of opening the hangar door & making sure it was the correct type of aircraft….

In other words,time to whip out the books and start re-educating myself would be the better choice if I got the last responses right?

from experience at least one licensed guy on type and depending on the size of the project 3-6 guys with several years practical experience on aircraft (and type preferably) and maybe the odd apprentice here and there

Difficult one this. My two pence worth.

As you all know, I’m rebuilding my L4 myself at home. My background started working wooden gliders at a local club and as a 15 year old in a microlite factory. I studied mechanical engineering at school, undertook a Rover Car apprenticeship and was runner up Young Engineer of the Year 2000 with a project developing new X-Ray detectors (at 17 years old).

Then followed two years in an aviation college studying for a BCAR A+C, followed by a year in GA maintenance, followed by 4 years as a Licenced Engineer (B1) with a major UK Airline. In this time I’ve worked as a free lance glider importer as well as serving time doing heavy composite work on a new PFA type. I gained more metal working experience with IWM Duxford who were taking volunteers back then and on the back of that made contacts in the Warbird Industry. I spent a long summer working at Aero Vintage (now Retrotec) and the range of expertise there was varied. At the time I was just finishing my Licence, the remaining chaps were either ex-airline fitters, a Russian Yak Instructor, an ex BBC props and scenery man, a draftsman, and some car mechanics. A Licenced chap popped by once a month to inspect items made during the last work period. I also did some small contract work for Hawker Restorations and on visits up there the workforce seemed to be of a similar make up.

However I have to disagree with Lindys Lad, currently you do not have to hold a part 66 to certify these aircraft. Until September 2008 you can still certify under BCAR A/B/C/D licences. Whilst at AV, EASA conducted a number of visits to watch the operation for the purposes of Annexing aircraft (warbird) types. The effects of which will come in after 09/2008, hopefully not for the detriment of the restoration movement.

As for me, I do not hold a PFA Inspectors Rating, however my application is already filled out. A PFA friend of mine is overseeing the rebuild and the experience for this (together with past GA work) will be used in my PFA Inspectors application, making my future projects easier tasks. I was lucky enough at college to have the opportunity to undertake wood/fabric airframe repairs as well as metal airframes and submitted test pieces. Together with BCAR and B1 Licences, I’m fairly well covered in what I’m doing.

Overall, if people want to work warbirds with the bigger restoration companies, they are either skilled volunteers and are lucky in being snapped up, or have a background with older aviation skills, plus at least 5 years of study and work in the industry. However if you want to undertake this on your own, unless you are working to a PFA permit you are going to struggle.

Rules came in a few years back preventing BCAR engineers working off their own back(and personal licence), you have to be attached to a company and hold approval to certify work done, therefore that company has to be at least M3 approved and have M3 workshops. This prevented “jobs on the side” and limits the amount of private work that can be done. Also with the rise of “no win no fee” claim companies, I know I for one feel less likely to sign someone elses work outside of a company environment.

If I were you, I’d either find a friendly inspector who knows, trusts, and is prepared to work with you for a PFA type of project, than going the heavy and expensive CAA route involving big companies and big bills. In theory with your experience of sheet metal work, you should have no problem transfering across to the aviation side of things. As long as your work tollerences are tight enough, I’m sure an inspector will happily work with you after some test pieces.

FB

So knowing how to do sheet metal work (I have been working as a custom/race car builder/fabricator…shaped just about anything from scratch…done mostly aluminium shaping) and worked extensivly on engines ( I’m currenty working as a full-time race engine builder in my own shop) I can build/restore just about anything as long as I have a certified technician signing it off? 🙂

Agreed – in a restoration company there will be at least one guy with the required licence (for aircraft under 5200KG new rules under EASA are coming in…). The rest of the workforce can be anyone from volunteers to pilots. Providing that the lead engineer is suitably qualified (Pt 147 training course, 2 years in industry before gaining an EASA pt 66 B1 or B2 or even a C licence, followed by the required type courses – read as 5 years MINIMUM to get all this), and experienced (!) then he can sign of a monkey’s work if it is good enough. This guy is responsible for the aircraft legally, and can face a lengthy term in prison if mechanical faults cause the loss of a machine or pilot

YOU could build a spitfire having worked on a pig farm all your life, and providing the pt66 engineer signs your work as good, then you have built an airworthy aircraft. (subject to CAA / EASA approval too – complicated subject area….)

I have been employed as a contractor by Air Atlantique helping on the Lancaster Major over last winter. I personally just scraped into the job by way of my volunteering at various museums over the last 15 years. I was RAF airframes for 7 years, cross trained to propulsion, followed by a 2 year EASA pt147 course, Foundation degree, and so far 1 year as a contractor working on anything from Lancasters to Airbus A320’s, with a spattering of 747 and A300 into the bargain. I don’t have a licence, and don’t need one. Other fitters who I have worked with have no formal education – simply a few years as a volunteer at museums is often enough to land a contract job on live aircraft (although rarely!). Experience is key, and unusual trades are a bonus!

Any good craftman within the fields (mechanical, electrical, structure and avionics) would be a boon, provided that he/she is more traditionally skilled.

Craftsman and traditionally skilled are the three important words in the quotation, as someone from an electrical engineering background my experience is that real craftsmen are hard to come by in this age of automation and black box replacement. We the consumers do not want to pay for craftsmanship!

The aviation industry is full of new manufacturing techniques and new materials that do not require the old skills. The result of progress (?) is that the traditional skills are in short supply, those who need those skills will I suspect snap them up!

Eric

I only know people involved with keeping a DC-3 (to me thats a C-47).

The team that restored it, was a mixture of aircraft mechanics, sheet metal workers, pilots and a few other trades.

I assume that anyone working full-time with aircraft resturation, would need a part 66 aml. Otherwise no one can sign of the work.

But since some of them are classified as experimental/homebuild (this also goes for the UK i think), it might different rules.

My bet is, that the companies employ people by word-of-mouth. Any good craftman within the fields (mechanical, electrical, structure and avionics) would be a boon, provided that he/she is more traditionally skilled.