Retro Auction

David

It also spent time in a scrapyard in Portsmouth after its disposal from Llanbedr when it’s wings were hacked off, it was then purchased and returned to Wales IIRC! So it suffered further sea air on the English South coast!

Here’s a shot I took of it about 12 months back after it was acquired by Retro and was at a temporary resting place. I guess my photo is more recent than those in the link which I believe depicted it with the penultimate owner.

Tim

Mark – Maes Artro was a museum set up just outside the centre of Llanbedr.
So you have a combination of the sea being very close to the museum and the general rainfall in that part of Wales.

Not intended to confuse, but below is NAM’s ‘composite’ Anson pictured about 2 years ago – sorry I don’t have any internal pictures; however the 12+ years restoration programme was completed to a high standard. 🙂

David Burke
As for your notes Mark -yes indeed the centre section parts did spend a long time at Maes Artro which is efectively Llanbedr and the atmosphere in this part of Wales is best described as ‘Maritime’ for the best part of the year!

There is only one place where the fuselage belongs in the U.K – I hope something could happen to make it happen.

David do you mean simply a high rainfall rather than a coastal exposure?

and I assume you mean Manchester as the appropriate museum location – (perhaps a fuselage close to display condition will be attractive over taking on an airframe with a significant restoration on its wing?)

WJ244 Mark
Would the museum that you referred to have been Southend?

Southend closed 1982 and I would have thought that was a bit early for my enquiry? but perhaps that was it? certainly it was well before 1994. The museum I rang was a going concern so it would had to have been occuring well before Southend’s closure in 1982 and auction in 1983. But I do recall the museum had two Ansons and the one being disposed was damaged and in poor condition. Obviously there were other wings around for the RNZAF museum to acquire the wing off VL352 for their restoration?

Johnny Kavanagh – Pardon my ignorance of all things Anson, but am I correct in thinking there is a wingless Anson fuselage or cockpit currently for sale in the UK as a result of this? And if so, could someone in the know tell me a little more about it – condition (!), completeness, location etc?

Johnny, we are discussing the Avro Anson VS562, it was the prototype T21 and was a gate guardian / training aid with the ATC for many years in Wales, when sold from that role the purchaser cut the “wings” off flush with the fuselage rather than unbolting the wing from underneath the fuselage, it then passed to a museum who placed the cut-off wings on steel frames and mounted them outside on either side of a small hut displaying the fuselage, the fuselage is therefore largely intact and has spent less time out in the weather.

It has been owned by a number of people and is now owned by Retro Aviation who previously listed it for auction and was passed in, (the main topic of this thread) – the fuselage remains in the UK and obviously an opportunity should someone pursue it?

Google will yield some photos of it, as will some other threads here on KP

Gate Guardian with the ATC in 1975, certainly a sad demise for an apparantly intact and tidy example, but then all derelict aircraft were originally new, and flew, before falling into disrepair – the Southend Lincoln is a similar sad story of failed preservation.

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=52895

I believe the fuselage is still largely in the same condition it was when this previous owner advertised it for sale.

http://www.milweb.net/webverts/40547/

Regards

Mark Pilkington

She sold from Maes Artro for circa 5K and then passed through a couple more hands until being sold on E-Bay for circa 5K again! Having expected her to sell at the Retro Auction -I rather lost track of her but she seems not to have wandered far. She isn’t a very good reflection on British preservation.

As for your notes Mark -yes indeed the centre section parts did spend a long time at Maes Artro which is efectively Llanbedr and the atmosphere in this part of Wales is best described as ‘Maritime’ for the best part of the year!

There is only one place where the fuselage belongs in the U.K – I hope something could happen to make it happen.

Pardon my ignorance of all things Anson, but am I correct in thinking there is a wingless Anson fuselage or cockpit currently for sale in the UK as a result of this? And if so, could someone in the know tell me a little more about it – condition (!), completeness, location etc?

Thanks
JK

Mark
Would the museum that you referred to have been Southend?
At one point Southend had Avro19 G-AVHU/TX211 and then acquired or was gifted G-AVVO/VL348 which had been abandoned by her owners and impounded for non payment of parking fees. Finally the museum was given the airworthy G-AGPG whose subsequent demise to a rotting wreck is pretty well documented.
G-AVVO was passed to Newark to replace their previous Anson G-ALIH which had been torched by vandals. Ironically G-ALIH was ex Southend airport having been the original Ekco flying electronics testbed before being replaced by G-AGPG. Ekco fitted GPG with the radar nose from LIH and LIH went to Newark with the original nose from GPG.
G-AVHU/TX211 was towed to the dump at the end of Runway 33 and abandoned as no one wanted her. I believe it was there for some time so if this was the Anson you were referring to it should have been possible to recover the wings even after the museum disposed of it had you been pointed in the right direction to mak further enquiries.

.

I have been collecting Anson parts, including fuselage frames, narcelles and engines since the late 1970’s and always had hopes of acquiring a metal wing to add to my now 2x 40′ container loads of mark I fuselage/engine etc parts, although I knew few, if any, metal wings were lying around by themselves and that any surplus wing would probably only arise from the scrapping of an intact airframe.

The only other real opportunity I had was many years ago in the late 1980’s when a UK museum scrapped its duplicate XIX as it was in poor condition and they had not been able to get anyone interested in taking it on. The intention to scrap it was detailed in a UK magazine but by the time I heard about it and made enquiries with the museum concerned I was told it had already been scrapped.

(I can only find reference to G-AGPG at Brenzett in 1994 being in a similar circumstance but that still survives elsewhere so I assume it was another airframe and museum and perhaps slightly earlier?).

This time the Internet and email gave the ability to learn the wings of VS562 were likely to be scrapped due to the lack of sale of the complete airframe at the auction, with the fuselage expected to be retained as a museum piece.

While I appreciate the prototype role of VS562, unless someone had stepped in after the auction to purchase the whole aircraft, or seperately had a need for the cut centre-section and wing outer panels and made enquiries as I had done, they would have likely been lost to the UK regardless.

I much preferred the outcome of them coming to Australia to play a future role in a mark I static restoration than to see them scrapped and have the last opportunity to acquire a set passed up.

The fuselage remains largely intact, and would still allow a museum display around VS562’s heritage as the T21 prototype to be achieved with little if any work, assuming the frame is not as rotten as the engine mounts.

She has obviously had a hard life, the engine mounts and undercarriage legs are very rotten, was it exposed to sea air, or just a very moist environment with external storage? (one main wheel is half returned to powder)

I know the two centre-section halves spent a long time outside on their steel frames either side of the small shed at Maes Artro, was that close to the sea?

Luckily my mark I engine mounts and undercarriage units, wheels etc are like “new” compared to those on VS562, and the centre-section structure is largely only suffering from angle grider surgery rather than any terminal structural corrosion.

The aluminium tops of the main undercarriage legs are virtually corroded through, it is only the cross brace knuckle between them that remains holding the leg in place, I dont think it could hold its own weight.

There is some surface corrosion on the lower skins of the centre-section, but nothing terminal or likely to require re-skinning simply from the corrosion, but there will be a need for various skin replacements or repairs due to hangar rash etc.

The wing outer panels are relatively straight and undamaged, but there is some severe skin corrosion on one lower skin on one tip, as if it has lay on the ground / grass for a while?, and that will need to be reskinned?

The tailplane is reasonable but with some corrosion (where it sat under the fuselage?), although I already have a metal tailplane in better condition and a wooden one in repairable condition.

I know the repair of the centre-section will be a big job, and if able to be done here, could have also been done in the UK to bring VS562 back to life, but as Bruce said, this airframe has been passed around through many hands, and been passed up by many more, and in my opinion was going to be seperated permanently in the near future in anycase.

Regards

Mark Pilkington

Yes, I think its a crying shame that she has been split up as she has – no offence to Mark P.

However, it she has been available for sale for an awful long time, and no-one has been able to give her a good home. The fact that the centre section was cut was always going to be a serious problem…

Bruce

Having followed VS562 as a lad I am sad to see what has happened to her over the years from being an essentially sound aircraft with the ATC at Llanbedr. I tried to purchase her at Maes Artro but unfortunately was outbid.

David,

The helmut cowls are quite a rarity, many of the post war Ansons were fitted with Oxford cowls (I’m not sure of the benefit – cooling/speed?), and of the 4 complete mark I Ansons on display in Australia only 1 is fitted with helmut cowls.

The attached photo shows one of mine, VH-FIA / AW965 in its post war service with Flinders Island Airlines, which in fact appears to have the XIX cowls fitted with the air scoop incorporated into the lower cowl.

The RAAF originally purchased 48 early sloping windscreen mark I Ansons in 1936 for coastal reconnaissance, followed a second order of 40 “N” series airframes in 1939, while later 900 GR.1 airframes were shipped to Australia to support the EATS program.

After the war some 40 airframes flew under civil registrations, with the last wooden winged aircraft being removed from the register in 1962 by the clamp down on wartime glued wings by the DCA. A single C-19 came to Australia post war and briefly onto the civil register before crashing in 1964, while two Anson XIX aircraft joined the RAAF in 1947, one crashed in 1954 while went onto the civil register in 1957 and subsequently crashed. Its wing was used to convert a former mark I from wooden to metal wing, resulting in Australia’s last flying Anson VH-BAF, now under restoration to fly in NZ.

The Anson was important type in Australia, playing a role in the late 1930’s modernisation as the first retractable monoplane in the RAAF, playing a major role in Australia’s EATS contributions, and playing an important role in re-establishing civil airlines post WW2.

Today we have two complete and original Anson mark I’s surviving in Australia, R9883 the former VH-AGA at the Camden Museum in NSW, in a wartime military colour scheme but still fitted with its Oxford cowls, the other is W2121, the former VH-BEL (the last wooden winged Anson to fly in Australia), at the Heritage Museum of Western Australia at Bull Creek is fitted with an early turret and in a pre-war silver colour scheme, and also still wearing its post war Oxford cowls.

We also have two reconstructed Anson mark I’s, both fitted with replica wooden wings.

At Tamworth NSW VH-ASM, the former W2068 (The RAF Museum fuselage identity appears incorrect see below) is on display in its civilian markings as the first aircraft of East West Airlines, and is appropriately fitted with Oxford cowls, while at the South Australian Aviation Museum EF594 (never flew civil), is being restored with a set of helmut cowls.

There are about 7 other mark I Anson kitsets either stored or under slow restoration, of the over 900 that served in Australia during the war, in addition to the rare sloping screen Anson mark I fuselage exported with VH-BAF to NZ and Bill Reid there is a rare sloping windscreen Anson under slow restoration in Australia – A4-37, interestingly only two of these very early Ansons went civil post war and both were exported?

Most Ansons were scrapped directly after the war as there were far too many to be fully utilised in civil aviation with most of the survivors coming from farms who purchased the aircraft for materials. The soft and near pure aluminium of the helmut cowls was very attractive for farmers to use as flashing etc, and of course when the scrap dealers came years later the cowls and engines were about the only valuable metal left selling.

New Zealand had far fewer Ansons than Australia with a total of 25, although 3 survive in various condition and the RNZAF Museum’s example has the helmut cowls.

Helmut cowls are therefore quite rare in Australia, and I cant comment on what cowls are held by others but I do have a number of sets in my own parts.

http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/london/collections/aircraft/aircraft_histories/1996-0066-A%20Avro%20Anson%201%20W2068.pdf

INDIVIDUAL HISTORY
AVRO ANSON MK.1 W2068/VH-ASM / 9261M
MUSEUM ACCESSION NUMBER 1996/0066/A
1939

66 Fuselage in open storage in Sid Marshal’s yard at Bankstown along with a Spitfire, two DC2s and another Anson fuselage. Much of the rear fuselage fabric had become detached by this stage, as had the rudder.
Mar 72 Acquired for static rebuild for East – West Airlines at Tamworth NSW. Photos part restored – Flypast Feb.84 p.2- fuselage complete; new wings being constructed by John Gallagher of Loftus, NSW who completed the ground – up fuselage restoration in 1985. Photo- Aeroplane Monthly Aug 85 p.395; VintageAircraft No. 36 Spring 1986. Photo as passed to John Gallagher in 1980-VintageAircraft No. 16 p.5.
1987 Restoration completed. Photo- 23 Jun 1987- Anson File (023199) p.324 . Restored to overall silver colour scheme with black registration letters.
23 Jun 87 Displayed by East-West Airlines at their 40th Anniversary display at Kingsford Smith Airport, Sydney. Photo – Aeroplane Monthly Sep 1987 p.451.The aircraft was intended to be displayed in a building at Tamworth Airport, EWAs’ base.
C. May 93 Fuselage less wings imported into the UK by the Fighter Collection, Duxford; Offered to the RAF Museum in an exchange deal, in which the RAF Museum acquired the restored Anson fuselage and engines, undercarriage and tail, plus the rebuilding of its P-47 Thunderbolt, in exchange for former gate guard Spitfire Mk.22 PK624.

VH-ASM / W2068 is still safe and sound at Tamworth, and the RAF Museum actually has the former Ralph Cusack restored Anson mark I fuselage.

Regards

Mark Pilkington

OUt of interest are Mk.1 cowls common in Auz/New Zealand as the Duxford MK.1 would look great with them on!

Metal wings on a MK.1???

Well it is sacriledge I know, but a lot easier than constructing 56′ of new / replica non-flying wooden wing, and its been done twice before.

The former Brain & Brown mark I VH-BAF with the wings of XIX VM375, now in NZ with Bill Reid,
& the RNZAF Museum’s mark I static restoration with the wings of C-19 VL307. (or is that VL352?)

The RNZAF static example seems acceptable to me,

smiles

Mark Pilkington

.
The Rudder, and tailplane/elevators are also south of the equator, but the fuselage of VS562 remains complete and in the UK as a possible museum exhibit?

(nudges David Burke and suggests AeroVenture might be a nice home for it, or perhaps Ross can upgrade to a full length fuselage?)

Regards

Mark Pilkington

Metal wings on a MK.1???

The wings and cut centre-section of Anson T.21 VS562 on their way downunder….

And wheres the remainder Mark ?

.

What exactly have you got of each Ross?

& does anyone know the future owners plans for the dissected winged Anson sold at the auction?

Regards

Mark Pilkington

The wings and cut centre-section of Anson T.21 VS562 on their way downunder for an eventual Anson mark I static display outcome, – arrived into Melbourne last week. – thanks for your assistance Ross (& Richard), very much appreciated.

Hmmm Lincoln, Anson – wonder if there are any more unwanted Avro’s in the UK – smiles

Regards

Mark Pilkington

No! Dont worry, I would have noticed, and there isnt a lot we need now.

Bruce

Were there any Venom parts in the sale apart from the whole one?

Hi Mark,

T.21
Original Throttle box
Original Main panel, complete
Reproduction BFP, complete,
Original Rudder pedals
Reproduction fuselage frame fwd of front spar.
Reproduction cockpit floor
Reproduction pilot seat
Orginal nose c/w pitot tube
Sections of original cowl c/w wiper gear and motors.

Mk II
Original Throttle box
Original Fuel **** controls
Original Main panel, complete
Reproduction BFP, complete,
Original Rudder pedals
Original fuselage frame c/w front spar.
Reproduction cockpit floor
Original Pilot seat
Original control column
Original Nav seat
Original Cowl c/w front windscreen
Original Port glazing
Orignal misc cockpit fittings
Original electrical distribution panel for fuselage

Mk.I
Original Throttle box
Reproduction Main panel, complete
Reproduction BFP, complete,
Reproduction Rudder pedal
Original fuselage frame fwd of front spar c/w with browning mount.
Reproduction cockpit floor
Orginal Cowl c/w front windscreen
Reproduction Browning
Original second pilot control wheel and column.

Plus a few other bits and pieces in deep store (buried in garage)

Regards
Ross