Return of the Arsenal ship, kind of

I do feel the best bet for an arsenal ship type concept is to simply make either C-1 or C-2 (or preferably both) a stretched Type 45, with more VLS cells. The design would be stretched to allow a longer VLS fore, and possibly add a VLS amidships. The forward VLS would take advantage of the built-in space for the sixteen strike length cells, taking it to 64 cells; this would then be stretched by around 50% in length, taking it to 96 cells. This does look possible from the overhead views of the T45, but that is just guesswork. This would give 96 cells, to be filled with a mix of Aster 30, Tomahawk/Scalp and CAMM; e.g. 40 Aster 30, 40 Tomahawk/Scalp and 64 CAMM in total.

If you want to opt for a true arsenal ship, to be a simply VLS hauler, on a simple hull, yet keep up with the Type 45, then the solution would be a catamaran, e.g. the JHSV. These have the advantage of a lot of physical deckspace, lots of speed, and relatively simple design. The 7m length of the proposed Sylver A70 wouldn’t be too much of a problem, it would be about the height of the hangar plus one deck below. As such, you could build a JHSV type hull, packed with VLS cells, equipped with a basic but sufficient defensive fitout, along the lines of what we would fit to the C-3. There would be deckspace for over 100 cells, yet on a small hull. Since it is using standoff weapons, it doesn’t need to get too close to danger anyway, but even if it does, it could close at 40 knots, launch and return quickly.

If the UK is to get any true SSGN capability, then it pretty much all depends on what the Vanguard replacement looks like. If the costs can be kept down (yes, you can laugh at that the very idea!), then buying a couple more to serve as SSGNs might work. This would mean something like six hulls, with a modular launch tube, to allow either cruise missiles or Trident. We would then keep three or four full sets of Trident, and three or four sets of cruise missile launchers. This would always guarantee the deterrent, yet allow us to put to sea plenty of conventional firepower whenever necessary.

… we do like to buy lots of small buys of different items of kit so with Tomahawk in RN, Apache (:)) in RAF expect next Cruise Missile to be purchased for UK to be Brahmos…

The RAF doesn’t have Apache. Even the French didn’t buy many Apache before switching to the grown-up version with twice (at least) the range, same as we have. Apache is not Scalp.

We don’t have any aircraft fitted to carry a missile as big as Brahmos, & AFAIK there’s no plan to bring back Vulcan.

Do you really think it’s likely that the RN is going to get SSGNs?

Not in the slightest. Is there anything I (or anyone else) has typed which has suggested that I/they do?

And what is this obsession with Tomahawks,

This is an armchair enthusiasts forum and there has been lost of footage of Tomahawk being used in anger. Also RN already has Tomahawk. But we do like to buy lots of small buys of different items of kit so with Tomahawk in RN, Apache (:)) in RAF expect next Cruise Missile to be purchased for UK to be Brahmos

Aster missiles can’t be quadpacked

No but rumours abound that CAAAMMMMM will do

Fireshadow is also designed to be fired from VLS, and is going to be a damn sight cheaper than tossing around TLAMs

Indeed, if it works and can be bought in economical numbers. But there is that range issue you mentioned

Do you really think it’s likely that the RN is going to get SSGNs? And what is this obsession with Tomahawks, Aster missiles can’t be quadpacked and as such take up a lot of volume for very few shots, Fireshadow is also designed to be fired from VLS, and is going to be a damn sight cheaper than tossing around TLAMs while necessitating being closer to the shore before firing.

The thing about Tomahawks is that 1000lb warhead, accuracy, range, and no pilot to get shot down. 🙂 (Now if they could do something about it’s turtle-like speed.)

Do you really think it’s likely that the RN is going to get SSGNs? And what is this obsession with Tomahawks, Aster missiles can’t be quadpacked and as such take up a lot of volume for very few shots, Fireshadow is also designed to be fired from VLS, and is going to be a damn sight cheaper than tossing around TLAMs while necessitating being closer to the shore before firing.

IF we’re just talking LACMs then the 4 Ohio SSGNs would qualify as arsenal ships I’d think.

Yes they would and they have the enormous virtue of stealth.

Not only does this make them FAR more survivable than a skimmer could ever be but also provides a deterrent effect in that no foe is likely to be certain whether one of the Ohio SSGNs is parked in range or not.

Fair point.

IF we’re just talking LACMs then the 4 Ohio SSGNs would qualify as arsenal ships I’d think.

Superpower budget? the only big cost is the VLS loadout, Like I said I’m not talking about a missile ship, I’m suggesting glorified missile barge, sure we should be building C1/C2 with plenty of cells, but we’re not going to get many hulls, and not only would this idea increase the number of missiles (of any type) in a theoretcal task group, but also using them almost as old school pickets means they can intercept an incoming threat (missile/boat/plane/whatever) whilst it’s outside the range of the motherships missiles but within the detection range of the radar umbrella.

If the vls loadout is so insignificant how come the entire RN stockk of Tomahawks could fit in one of the ships you are proposing, there’s only one Navy in the world that has a substantial stock of LACMs and even the closest thing they’re building to what you’re proposing are the Zumwalts, even they have some utility as multi-rule vessels.

There still isn’t anything that these ships can do in peace time, that’s significant for any navy when there’s nobody presenting an immediate threat.

im pretty sure I suggested what you are looking for before. Below is my concept.

Just build 4 or so of these and have them go join a Type 45 if needed.

48 cells – 40 tomahawks/scalp and 32 Camm quad packed.

Superpower budget? the only big cost is the VLS loadout, Like I said I’m not talking about a missile ship, I’m suggesting glorified missile barge, sure we should be building C1/C2 with plenty of cells, but we’re not going to get many hulls, and not only would this idea increase the number of missiles (of any type) in a theoretcal task group, but also using them almost as old school pickets means they can intercept an incoming threat (missile/boat/plane/whatever) whilst it’s outside the range of the motherships missiles but within the detection range of the radar umbrella.

I don’t see the RN ever having a large enough arsenal of LACM to ever make this sort of ship worthwhile, one ship with 128 could take all of the RN’s current stock of Tomahawks.

Also what would the ships be doing when they are not bombarding an enemy state during wartime? they don’t seem able to do any of the other routine taskings the RN would need to be carried out during peacetime. The Arsenal ship to me sounds like a luxury that only a superpower with an appropriate budget can afford.

I’m talking about something much smaller, not much bigger than an LCU, low cost force multiplication to make up for the massive cuts in fleet numbers

You want 128 VLS on something smaller? And able to keep up with a T45? Good luck with that.

It’d probably be easier and more useful to simply alter the current T45 design to include more VLS near the current cells and use space where the 2nd mast is for the AAW ships and the Harpoon area for another set of launchers. It might not get it up to 128 but it’s a start.

Alas CEC is a frozen project for the RN but in this scenario the Type 23’s and their replacements would act as Arsenal ships for the Type 45.

Once they go over to CAMM which is an active missile the Sampson on the Type 45 could queue the missiles on the Type 23/replacement.

I’m talking about something much smaller, not much bigger than an LCU, low cost force multiplication to make up for the massive cuts in fleet numbers

Since the consensus seems to be that the Type 45 is a little limited, especially in VLS storage, I wonder if arsenal ships might not be the way to change that, well arsenal boats really, nothing as grand as the USN was proposing in the 90’s, 4 simple hulls (capable of keeping up with the Type 45) with minimal radar fit (just enogh not to bump into things), each little more than 128 strike length VLS with engines and room for a minimal crew, with the ability to run fully unmanned over secure comms w/CEC, could be just the thing, not only does it increase the number of available missiles, but it also puts some more distance between the destroyer and the missile when it enters the engagement envelope. I’d also feel a damn sight better about sending what is in essence a barge into harms way than putting a £1billion destroyer in the firing line.

Is this a good Idea or am I crazy?

Alas CEC is a frozen project for the RN but in this scenario the Type 23’s and their replacements would act as Arsenal ships for the Type 45.

Once they go over to CAMM which is an active missile the Sampson on the Type 45 could queue the missiles on the Type 23/replacement.