RIAT- Some Suggestions For The Future

Have to admit it was ages ago but wheteher on grass or concrete we always parked on base in the early 90’s. Possibly advance ticket holders only but always went in the West side of the base. I suspect that the on end of base parking was a knee jerk reaction to 9/11 and I’ve not been there since two or three years before that.

I remember that too, in fact I’ve never parked on grass at Fairford.

I don’t actually rememember the last time I didn’t park on grass off site at Fairford and I had to park on grass both times at Cottesmore.

Tough call

I’m sorry to hear that RIAT has been cancelled on the Sunday as well as today though I’m not surprised given the conditions on Friday. The organizers, participants and public will all be gutted.

A real delicate balance between the frustration of the public getting in; the amount of extra work for the emergency services and presumably local farmers getting people out of the mud; and ,of course, the pilots, teams and ground-crew – some of whom have traveled half way round the world to be there. What are they going to think about Britain and the British weather – would they come again?

Can I make a suggestion that perhaps the RIAT organizers might think about? The western end of the static is often a bit spartan with just a few big aircraft on the tarmac – could this area not be put aside for public parking? I know it might mean fewer aircraft in the static but it reduces the number of cars in the surrounding fields. As for the eastern ramp where the aerobatic teams seem to reside, could they not be moved over the northern side of the airfield to create more hard standing parking space? I seem to recall in years gone by that most aircraft flying were parked northside and it looks to have plenty of spare hardstanding? Was it the Mig accident that changed things? If the reason for moving these aircraft southside was to make it more interesting for the public then I can understand this but the British weather might prompt a rethink if RIAT is to continue.

Another thought is perhaps some aircraft could operate out of BZ to free up a bit more hardcore for cars. I appreciate that security barriers would need to be moved to within the secure perimeter but if there is a global weather trend developing, then with all the money involved – it’s too risky to put cars in fields where they just get stuck in mud – I attended the Queens Colours event on Friday and it was bad enough first thing in the morning watching all those ladies in their Ascot best and high heels trying to make it out of the field onto terra firma. Amazingly, the weather held out until about 2 minutes after the Queen left the parade ground for lunch. We took shelter in the back of the Chinook on the parade ground (many thanks to the Group Captain who let people in and kept telling us all to ‘move down the bus’ – must have been a record for people in a Chinook!!) – nevertheless we all looked like we had just climbed out of a swimming pool fully clothed.

My guess is that a lot of foreign participation might think twice next year unless RIAT give some guarantees to the crews about an audience. I was gob smacked on Friday to see all those WW1 aircraft fly in those conditions but clearly it can be done. I think it was RIAT 87 when it was chucking it down but the flying went on – what we need is plenty of cover – marquees of one variety or another – in my case, large beer tents – which you used to have back in the 80s; car parking on hard standing; park and ride from designated areas – there are some large firms in Swindon who do not work at weekends. The problem with bus-ing people in from park and rides is the amount of gear they might have to hump with them – i.e. cool boxes with their lunch and beers, fold up chairs, camera bags etc. Then why not put a cap on the exorbitant prices traders charge for food and drink and publicize it in advance? – e.g. basic hot food will be capped at £3 and a can of beer £2. Most supermarkets might charge £4 for a 4 pack and I appreciate that traders have to cover their overheads but £3.60 for a can of Becks on Friday was taking the mick. I have no idea what RIAT charge traders for a plot but could you not think about reducing whatever you charge if traders too reduce their prices to something more reasonable?

I suppose my point is that if RIAT want to continue hosting potentially the best air show in the world, then you need to satisfy everyone and provide guarantees accordingly. A radical rethink is necessary – maybe a smaller static to free up more concrete for cars; park and rides – making use of the big industrial car parks around Swindon; cheaper food & drink so that people wont mind using the park & rides – less to carry; owners of local fields used as car parks – have more straw as a contingency with tractors on call; using local airfields such as Kemble & BZ for display aircraft if there is to be less parking space at Fairford; large beer tents instead of trailer bars; maybe a few marquees strategically positioned along the entire flight line where the public might shelter if the heavens open up;

I don’t see any of this as a Health & Safety issue – the rain and its impact is a bloody great inconvenience – but nothing more – Glastonbury is no different. RIAT has grown since the early days at North Weald. You can bounce back – I can’t think of a better time in the year for holding RIAT but hey!! Let’s learn from this years mistakes and have better contingency plans in place for next year – the weather might be marvellous but have a fall back option just in case.

As I write this in Chippenham – not a millions miles from Fairford, the sun is shining and the sky is blue – my guess is you could have had a full flying display today but you were snookered by the car parking in fields – surely this is the main issue that you need to address? – ie getting people in and out successfully and looking after them (providing cover if necessary) whilst they are there.

I haven’t been to Farnborough for some time but I do remember it being something of a quagmire on my first visit in 1970 and at several shows thereafter. Has car parking there improved over the years?? Why not combine both shows at a single location? – economies of scale – share the costs etc? Make RIAT every other year back to back with Farnborough? – one week trade and the second week public? Not sure what the locals might think of this suggestion but I think its serious food for thought with the downward pressure on budgets given the global economy – just playing devils advocate here but don’t we need to be pragmatic to preserve the future of major UK airshows?????

Just some food for thought and discussion. Regards. Robbie

I can think of one way to free up some hard standing. Do away with the RIAT obsession with themed shows. This leads to such things as the 30th anniversary of the C-130 in service – 30+ Hercules in the static, how much hard parking would removing 29 of them free up? That is my main beef about RIAT that and the ticket price which always goes up for a show which doesn’t get any better in return. Sorry that last bit is probably not being totally fair in that it was always such a good show that it would be hard to improve. Like I say do away with the themed show and aim for as many different types as possible not just as many aircraft as they can get in. This will relieve the boring sameness of the static line up.
On the point of more straw I fear you may be on a loser as that is bedding for farm livestock which I cannot see the farmers being willing to waste given the cost of bringing it in from further afield if they run short. Of course they could always ask any transport types to bring in a few bales each:)

I seem to recall entering Fairford at the western end on several occasions in the past – I was directed to park on concreat. I’m sure parking was the only reason for cancelling this years airshow. That concreat – I’m convinced – was within the US ‘secure perimeter’. Maybe things have changed – if this is the case then any hope of another Mildenhall????

I remember that too, in fact I’ve never parked on grass at Fairford.

We are now into the “Cloud Cuckoo Land” of airshow locations. OC RAF Cottesmore would, no doubt, have the conniptions at the thought of The Great Unwashed invading his/her airfield. Cottesmore is in the reducing number of Operational Airfields. Do not give them more problems than they already have – part-time Ministers of Defence permitting!!
Taking events to Sculthorpe would enable the organisers to control all aspects (‘Elf & Safety, etc). The Natives are friendly – provided they are treated with a modicum of respect!
The Whole World does NOT actually do – or wants to do – what ‘airshow enthusiasts’ want for any event/time. The Whole World actually lives in the Real World – or have I committed a huge sin by mentioning this obvious fact on line. I suspect so!!!
Respects
Resmoroh

move the venue

i think it should be moved from fairford to RAF cottesmore where it is more central to the country so more people can attend from the north and east and it will be less likely to flood 😀

well when it was held at RAF cottesmore in 2000 and 2001 there were more people attending than fairfor had ever had. but i know 2000 was a bit cloudy but 2001 was just blue skies and the display was the best

so i say it should move to RAF cottesmore

🙂

Keith,
Logical, well thought out, and – if I may say so – a “Good Idea”. It would, in my estimation, be a good location for ALL the airshows (whether they be technical, commercial, or simply visual!).
Airspace, arrival/departure, problems are reduced to a minimum. Little noise, etc, problems – except to the Local Natives (and there aren’t too many of those in that neck of the woods!).
Stand by for hundreds of posts which presume to tell you why Sculthorpe is a “Bad Idea”. Read them carefully – Vested Interests may just (and there’s a surprise!!) could just be responsible.
HTH
Resmoroh

Parking was allowed onsite until Spetember 11 2001 (I recall standing on top of the car to see clearly when the Migs crashed in 1993).

Anyway, isn’t this post off topic for HA?

Mildenhall is operational ! Why not think about moving the whole thing just up the road to RAF Sculthorpe, Empty, doing nothing, loads of area, still in good condition, rain drains way very quickly here in Norfolk ! Think about it !
Keith.

What a sham !!!!

Why was there no ‘wet weather contingency plan’ ???

How about clearing a large proportion of the ‘static’ area and using this for parking. Surely that would have been better than cancelling the entire event (and I’m sure that they would have done this if the queen’s visit depended on it !!!!!). Its started raining from Wednesday, so they must have had time to reorganize things.

It’s been said before – the Americans don’t want onsite parking anymore – they used to, but then folk driving cars full of explosives into airports and menopausal women dancing round B2’s while wearing a Union flag put paid to that. I’ve been amazed they let folk on-site with bags and stuff – the security checks seem to want to discourage it, however the price of a burger and a cup of tea for a family of 4 makes it a bit impractical!

What we need is one location for RIAT, SBAC show, Air Races and somewhere we can draw together the disparate and ‘at risk’ historical collections (be they documents, photo’s or whatever) that escape the attention of IWM and other collections.

Ideally, I suppose it would have been Duxford but some clever political planning shortened the runway! 😎

Mods – sorry found this topic after I posted in the other – perhaps they need a merge?

What a sham !!!!

Why was there no ‘wet weather contingency plan’ ???

How about clearing a large proportion of the ‘static’ area and using this for parking. Surely that would have been better than cancelling the entire event (and I’m sure that they would have done this if the queen’s visit depended on it !!!!!). Its started raining from Wednesday, so they must have had time to reorganize things.

I for one am £300 out of pocket (hotel accommodation that will not get refunded) because of the event organizers ‘woefully inadequate’ wet weather contingency plan.

Surely the organizers have an obligation (to all those people that had paid to support the event, and travelled incredible distances, at considerable expense) to ensure that there was somewhere decent enough to park !!!! I know for a fact that several enthusiasts had travelled from Germany, some from even as far as Japan !!!

Planning for the entire event should start with ‘car parking’. After all, if you can’t get people through the door, you can’t have an event in the first place.

Forget ‘RAF Fair-Weather’ in future, bring back ‘RAF Mildenhall’.

Have checked out the flood risk to several airfields in the UK, military and civil, so far they seem fine. However, try Gatwick, it’s unbelievable, a veritable lake waiting to happen over most of the airfield, is anything being done about this.

Has anyone looked on the Environment Agency Flood Map for the airfield.
It quite clearly shows that a large part of the eastern end of the airfield is at risk from severe flooding.
I would have thought that the MoD would have been aware of this and taken precautions. It was only a few years ago that a lot of work was carried out on the airfield, which is why RIAT was shifted to Cottesmore. The additional hardstandings and building work would only produce additional run off which the drainage system, as shown on those UKAR photographs, can’t obviously cope with. Whether anything was done to the existing surface water system at the time, I wouldn’t like to say, but if the flood map shows potential problems for this major military airbase, then the MoD must be putting their heads in the sand, or mud, in this case, and hoping the problem will go away or never happen.
Remember the last Air Fete at Mildenhall. Saturday it rained, so we went on the sunday, when it p####d down all day. Apart from the problem of spending most of the day under a tarpaulin, I don’t recall any problems with flooding, or waterlogged ground, or cars getting stuck, and most of the flying took place, even the sacred B2 went up in a cloud of spray.
Admittedly, being on the edge of Thetford Forest, the ground around there is very sandy, it probably acts as a sponge, but there’s a hell of a lot of concrete and buildings at Mildenhall and the area is very flat, but according to the Environment Agency maps, no risk of flooding at all.
Perhaps if someones got nothing to do today, a flood risk assesment of UK airfields would be an interesting exercise, and probably an eye opener too.

I remember being at one Greenham show on a sales stand – I think it might have been the Canberra show when we had a cloud burst and it rained so hard there was boxes of plastic kits sailing down the taxiway from further up the sales line. And somebody got stroppy about he fact that we weren’t willing to put all our sales stock out on the tables in the appalling rain storm. It cleared up soon enough though.

I have never been to the Fairford RIAT so cannot comment on yesterdays debarcle but if parking is such a huge problem why no hold it elsewhere, i last went to RIAT at Cottesmore and it tipped it down the whole day we got parked no probs the flying carried on and when it tipped it down we all hid in the conveniantly positioned transport aircraft, i spent half an hour in a heavy rain storm watching a Israeli AF demo of UAV’s inside their nice dry C130 then when it stopped moved to a USAF C5 and so on and so on.

But i went to Duxford yesterday and they had all their parking on grass and had lots of rain but the car parks were still easily useable and ALL the aircraft that could fly did even the Bleriot flew (if only just) but a few people did comment that it was stupid holding RIAT the same date as Duxford and it seems him upstairs agreed:D

curlyboy

I was part of the Met Team at three of the early IATs (1977/79/81 all at Greenham).
I think that as part of the planning the organisers were (and I think Tim Prince will back me up!) basically “making some aspects of it up” as they went along. Greenham was 381 ft AMSL and on a chalk subsoil. Flooding was not a realistic problem. Fairford is 260 ft AMSL and only a few feet above the river level – and thus practically on the dreaded Flood Plain!! A “once in 30 yrs” or “once in 50 yrs” rainfall event could – as has been exposed – give them problems. It would have been interesting to know what the state of the airfield was after the 2007 summer rainfall event.
Also – for those grizzling about the met forecasts – they should be aware that, in UK, the basic forecast data for both civilian and military uses derives from the same source. The outputs are technically tailored in different ways.
And for those on this (or other threads) complaining that in the USA 5 – 9 day forecasts are very accurate. What they fail to state is that applies only in some areas. I’ve worked in areas of the world where the forecast for a month ahead could be issued with some confidence (and that was before computer forecasts!!). However, I’ve talked to forecasters at Portland, Oregon, USA. They are placed, geographically, in the same relative place as the UK – i.e. on the west side of a huge land-mass with a vast ocean to the west of them. They have exactly the same problems as the UK forecasters (I was welcomed with open arms as a life-time fellow sufferer!).
It’s not always as easy as it looks.
HTH
Resmoroh

Going back to Fairford and Farnborough being one event, I’ve felt for along time that this may happen.
Both shows used to be every two years, and alternating between the two. Farnborough used to be held at the beginning of September.
This I thought was a perfect ballance.

Now Fairford is held every year and seven days apart from Farnborough, less and less new aircraft are being produced and Fairford is more corporate, it would seem a natural step to have one big show.

Never believe in these “once in thirty year weather event predictions”. We paid for riverbank protection earthworks to provide protection against a “once in fifty years event ” .Once they were finished , we experienced three weather events in excess of the “once in fifty years predection ” during the next five years .

But I doubt my pipe-dreams would be realised

Excellent points on which I don’t have an answer. But the idea involves new sites, or sites that could be properly adapted.

Don’t ask me to chip in – Incapacity Benefit doesn’t pay that well. 😀

Robant – who would pay for these facilties ? The only facilites large enough to stage such an event like RIAT are ex / current RAF & USAF bases and these are becoming fewer and fewer as defence cuts / restructuring etc continues. In the last few years we have already lost airbases such as Greenham Common, Upper Heyford, Alconbury all of which used to have regular events.