Roundel Origins?

It would be fascinating to know what international talks/agreements took place to determine which country would use what markings.

I’m sure someone with knowledge of this subject will contribute.

A cease fire was called, and a “best of 3” game play-off of “noughts and crosses” was used to decide “who used what” for national markings.

Of course they had to toss a coin to see who went first, and who was the “nought”.

grabs my hat and coat on the way out.

smiles

Mark Pilkington

The French use of the Cocadre (Cockade) dates to the Revolution and so was an obvious marking for the Republic. The British adopted the Red/ White (St George) roundel after the Union Jack presented recognition difficulties and then added the blue part of our national colours, The colours were then reversed so as not to be the same as the French.

John

You are of course correct sir!

To anyone who finds this all a bit strange – its worth remembering that flight was still in its infancy. The (arguably) premiere flying service of the prewar days – the Royal Navy – only had 16 aircraft in service at the end of 1912.

Lets hope they’re not reduced to the same number by 2012.:diablo:

There wasn’t even standardisation on where to put the roundels. Some RFC aeroplanes had them on the rudder and even the elevators.

It seems that RNAS at least put theirs in the same place most times!

You are of course correct sir!

To anyone who finds this all a bit strange – its worth remembering that flight was still in its infancy. The (arguably) premiere flying service of the prewar days – the Royal Navy – only had 16 aircraft in service at the end of 1912.

Anyway, in October the Union Jack became cumpulsory for all RNAS aircraft. By December the RFC had decided to use the French pattern, but with the colours reversed. Later that month the RNAS changed to a red ring with a white centre.

There wasn’t even standardisation on where to put the roundels. Some RFC aeroplanes had them on the rudder and even the elevators.

It seems that RNAS at least put theirs in the same place most times!

Initially British aircraft only carried a serial number.

I believe that in 1914 there was no standard for international markings, although the French started in 1912 with their roundel. The Germans were said to have started using their black cross in September. A few British pilots responded (unoficially) by paint the Union Jack on their aircraft. BTW, as already stated this was all about not being shot down by ‘friends’. Also as already stated the problem with the Union Jack was that the shape could be considered too similar to the German Cross.

Anyway, in October the Union Jack became cumpulsory for all RNAS aircraft. By December the RFC had decided to use the French pattern, but with the colours reversed. Later that month the RNAS changed to a red ring with a white centre. Union Jacks continued to be used.

I think the next step was in 1915 when the national markings were standardised on the roundel that we know today. Fin flashes were also introduced.

So basically, we started from nowhere and then copied the French!

Interesting question.

Taking a quick glance at Jack Bruce’s “Britain’s First Warplanes” the first national markings appear to be the ‘union jack’ (sometimes the naval white ensign).

The first roundel I can see appears to be just two colours – a white disc surrounded by ?? . By the tone one roundel outer looks as though it might have been red rather than blue? The roundels also appear to have preceeded the use of tricolour stripes of the fin/rudder.

It would be fascinating to know what international talks/agreements took place to determine which country would use what markings.

I’m sure someone with knowledge of this subject will contribute.

Roger Smith.

British aeroplanes first arrived in France carrying the Union Jack, but this looked too much like a cross to those on the ground, who responded with what today would be called (ruddy stupid name) ‘friendly fire’.

The cockade or roundel, was already in use by the French and looked sufficiently different to the German maltese cross to allow easier recognition.