Roundel Red?

FYI there were no red pigments that were light stable for any period of time until the development of the diketo pyrollo pyrolles in the 70/80s up until then all red paints faded and would not be the same colour for any length of time.

Well, in line with that of BM597, this scheme is based on a well known artwork from a popular Spitfire book, but…

According to available data (e.g. http://www.acesofww2.com/Canada/aces/charles.htm) Charles returned to Canada by the end of 1944, so a 1945 2nd TAF scheme with no Sky band or Sky spinner looks a bit suspicious.

I wondered about this also, the information I have suggests that Charles was taken off operational flying prior to D-Day, so I was surprised to see ‘184 wearing what looks like a very late war scheme with the 1945 style roundels on the wing upper surfaces.

Moocher: Congratulations to you and all the ML407 team on keeping her flying in Grace ownership all these years, it’s one of those operations that has triumphed against the odds. And thanks to everyone involved with the great new paint job!

TE184 was re-painted around 18 months ago if I remember rightly, but I think the Duxford show may have been her public debut. She’s certainly had a quiet existence since the new paint was done. The scheme represents PT396, a Mk.IX flown by Wing Commander Jack Charles.

Well, in line with that of BM597, this scheme is based on a well known artwork from a popular Spitfire book, but…

According to available data (e.g. http://www.acesofww2.com/Canada/aces/charles.htm) Charles returned to Canada by the end of 1944, so a 1945 2nd TAF scheme with no Sky band or Sky spinner looks a bit suspicious.

DDSV of TE184 at Duxford last Sunday, 5 September.

Mark

Tin Triangle,

There are others on here I’m sure are far more qualified to comment, but being as you haven’t had a reply yet…TE184 was re-painted around 18 months ago if I remember rightly, but I think the Duxford show may have been her public debut. She’s certainly had a quiet existence since the new paint was done. The scheme represents PT396, a Mk.IX flown by Wing Commander Jack Charles.

From what I’ve read on previous discussions on the forum, I’m afrad it’s bad news about the colours on BM597. Apparently her date of manufacture means she should be in the later grey/green camouflage rather than the brown/green she has at the moment. What the hell, I agree she looks nice as she is…

Roobarb, thanks for your insights on the roundal colours. Is it any wonder I was confused before??! 🙂 One of the possibilities that had crossed my mind was that ‘407, wearing as she does an exact copy of her 80’s paintjob, was the one with incorrect shades. It’s nice to know the scheme is accurate in both senses. 🙂

I’m glad you like 407, we do too.
And thanks to Bentwingbomber too

mick

Tin Triangle,

There are others on here I’m sure are far more qualified to comment, but being as you haven’t had a reply yet…TE184 was re-painted around 18 months ago if I remember rightly, but I think the Duxford show may have been her public debut. She’s certainly had a quiet existence since the new paint was done. The scheme represents PT396, a Mk.IX flown by Wing Commander Jack Charles.

From what I’ve read on previous discussions on the forum, I’m afrad it’s bad news about the colours on BM597. Apparently her date of manufacture means she should be in the later grey/green camouflage rather than the brown/green she has at the moment. What the hell, I agree she looks nice as she is…

Roobarb, thanks for your insights on the roundal colours. Is it any wonder I was confused before??! 🙂 One of the possibilities that had crossed my mind was that ‘407, wearing as she does an exact copy of her 80’s paintjob, was the one with incorrect shades. It’s nice to know the scheme is accurate in both senses. 🙂

I have to say one of my favourite schemes was that on TE184. Seems like a bolt out of the blue-I have not even seen a picture of this scheme, so perhaps it is newly-applied. Alternatively, perhaps I have just been unobservant! Does anybody know anything about it? It looked to represent a late-war “personalised” scheme for an “ace” or high-ranking officer.

So I don’t get accused of thread drift, I thought TE184 had a slightly too subdued shade of red. My favourite Spitfire scheme on the UK circuit, and the one that “feels most right” to me is BM597.

An interesting question re the “correct” shade. Paint fade and colour shift will always play a part as will original reference sources, colour chips, and personal recollections. Then there is the whole minefield of different paint manufacturers interpretations of a given colour specification or colour chip to match to. How accurate are the roundels on a preserved airworthy Spitfire that was “accurate” 5 years ago when it was painted, but has been very active since and consequently spent many hours being faded in the sun? In fact longer than it would have survived/been operational during the war itself? The debate will always rumble on, but debate is good as it usually throws up new points of view and evidence on the subject discussed. 🙂
In addition to the appalling colours on PT462 there is also MJ627. No doubt a well researched representaion of its own wartime colour scheme but really, using post war bright blue and bright (post office/cherry) red is a left-over from the “dark period” of the 1980’s attempts. 3/10 for effort. Could do better… 😉

ML407’s 1980’s scheme was really one of the early successes of getting the colours correct (even in the “dark period”!), and even WoGB got it right on NH238, but then it was painted at Little Staughton from memory and their stuff was usually pretty good.

Thank you for the clarification Mark12, it’s nice to know that ‘407 not only looks ‘right’, but is right. Lovely! 🙂

I’m frankly stunned by the CAA’s ruling on PV202’s BofB movie codes, how can it be ‘more correct’ for a two-seat Spit to wear true Mk.1 BofB codes when two-seat Spits really did wear the movie scheme back in the sixties?? Bonkers…

In the referred image you have the very best Spitfire livery, in terms of accuracy albeit a two seater just, two up from the worst.

In between you have a two seater that was planned to replicate exactly the Battle of Britain film markings, and partner the Buchon, but fell foul of the CAA rulings/judgment on unit codes…AI-E not being acceptable.

Mark

I should perhaps clarify what I mean! There’s no intention of finger pointing here, I’m certainly not in any position of expertise to suggest that someone is ‘wrong’. Part of the reason for my asking is my lack of knowledge on the subject! What I was wondering is why there is such a range of roundel colours- so for example, was there a change in the shade of red used at particular times when the aircraft were in service or is it a modern variation? Is it possible for such a range of shades to all be correct?

Looking at Mark12’s lovely picture of the two-seat Spit line-up at Duxford last weekend, I was noticing how different the shades of roundel red appear between aircraft, particularly ML407. This got me wondering, which is closest to the original shade? ‘407’s roundels just look ‘right’ somehow, as does the rest of the paintjob. Her recent repaint back to 1980’s colours has worked a treat!

I’d thank the guy who supplied 407s painters the correct colour specs.

🙂