Marines ‘murdered man live on camera’: Court martial sees graphic footage of ‘execution’ of injured Taliban fighter
The victim was left twitching and gasping for breath as the British servicemen, apprehensive that they might have been spotted, pretended to give him first aid
I know what some will say – he was a Taliban terrorist, they did what was right, let all of them get shot, etc. There, I’ve saved you the bother. Move along, there’s nothing to see.
BUT
Is this the sort of thing the British military is renowned for? Does this not reflect badly on our troops? Will this not cause problems because the Taliban are not complete fools, they do remember?
Had this been done by German troops we would all remember the terrible things the SS did, what happened in the concentration camps, the way the world believed that it was in the national psyche to treat prisoners badly. And it would be the same with Japanese troops as well.
Imagine you were talking to your grandfather
You: what did you do in the war, grandfather?
Grand: I executed an injured man, lad.
You: why?
How would you answer that question?
How would you feel if you were told that by your grandfather or, indeed, any relative?
The British military has had a reputation within Britain for being fair when the fighting is over (elsewhere though, some might remember things differently, like the Kenyan Mau Mau for example, or the Boer part of South Africa who know where concentration camps were first used) so this news reflects badly on our national standing.
Americans, in general, do not believe that the things regarded by others as a breech of military protocol done by their military in the liberation of Iraq and Afghanistan were a bad thing (executions of injured on video, urinating on bodies on video, abusing prisoners to break the boredom for a camera, torture, long term detentions under duress), but these things (and more) are against the human rights agreed by the United Nations, and you cannot pick and choose who you allow to apply those rights to. Ok, so you know that the Taliban do not follow the human rights convention and would execute you in a heartbeat if the tables had been turned – but is that any reason to stoop to their level?
Ok, you discuss.
By: Mr Merry - 11th November 2013 at 21:07
Scratches head ,yet another delusional comment.
Are you saying you are superior to a squaddie,you see them as some kind of lower being to yourself.
Don’t ask one squaddie, ask a thousand and see what the consensus is.
By: Mr Merry - 11th November 2013 at 21:02
CD, all opinions are valid, of course they are. I may not agree with your opinions and you may not agree with my opinions, or Johns. That’s how it works on a forum. Will I fall out with anyone who disagrees of course not. Being informed does help though.
At the end of the day we could all have a hug and agree on everything. That’s not going to happen, nope and why should it?
By: Creaking Door - 11th November 2013 at 20:42
How on earth did you come to that conclusion? As the moderators know, I am always banging on about the virtue of free speech. I do not wish to silence anyone. All I wish for is, that if for example, contibutors do not have any experience of the subject they would admit it and simply offer uninformed opinion.
Well, I am happy to have a better understanding of your position on that point!
You may wish to re-read some of your previous post because they do tend to give the impression that, anybody who hadn’t served in combat, did not then have the right to give their opinion (uniformed or not) on any matter relating to the behaviour of armed-forces in combat…
…that would finish parts of this forum at a stroke! :rolleyes:
To avoid any confusion in future it would probably be best if you regarded all my opinions, such as they are, as uninformed; however they are still my opinions, they are the only ones I have, and if I am to improve my level of (er?) ‘informity’ then it would be helpful if my opinions were not dismissed out-of-hand by those who are informed, or at least, more informed than myself.
By: trumper - 11th November 2013 at 20:40
Re 312
Ask the ‘squaddie’ – your friend, he’ll have the answer !
Scratches head ,yet another delusional comment.
Are you saying you are superior to a squaddie,you see them as some kind of lower being to yourself.
By: Mr Merry - 11th November 2013 at 20:27
Snapper, please enjoy your popcorn.
By: Snapper - 11th November 2013 at 20:23
Snapper, how can you call a Taliban a ‘combatant’? My understanding of a ‘combatant’ is that they wear a uniform. Do they wear a uniform? No. Have they signed the Geneva Convention? No, why haven’t they signed? They wouldn’t and they can’t as they are not a military force, they are not representing a lawful government.
Your understanding is wrong, you are confusing the term combatant with the term guerrilla. Check the 1949 Geneva Convention amendments to see how relevant your comment on signatories is. Also check out the rules of engagement British troops are under orders to adhere to. Anyway, I’m not part of this argument, I’m just sitting here with my popcorn watching you lot work yourselves up into a state of idiocy but I rather felt you’d drifted away from the point. Carry on.
By: Creaking Door - 11th November 2013 at 20:22
Where did I advocate something along the lines of a holocaust?
You didn’t…..but you did say that you’d ‘support your country right or wrong‘!
I’ll admit I was playing Devil’s advocate and taking it to an extreme but I wonder at what point you would stop supporting your country (and by country I presumed that you meant the decision of your government)?
Because if it is support ‘right or wrong’ you would support a Holocaust…..if that was British policy?
By: Mr Merry - 11th November 2013 at 20:15
I would say Lee Rigbys murder was an act of ‘terror’.
That said has they haven’t been found guilty of murder as of yet so they are ‘alleged’ murderers. Until they have their time in court they are innocent.
By: John Green - 11th November 2013 at 20:15
Re 312
Ask the ‘squaddie’ – your friend, he’ll have the answer !
By: trumper - 11th November 2013 at 20:01
I don’t see how Marine A action was ”terrorism” or have I missed something?
I guess the word terrorism is a fairly flexible one in meaning.I would say in this case it probably wasn’t but then Lee Rigbys murderers ,were they terrorists in an act of terror ,or murderers.
By: Mr Merry - 11th November 2013 at 19:38
I don’t see how Marine A action was ”terrorism” or have I missed something?
By: Derekf - 11th November 2013 at 19:33
You cannot accuse others of terrorism then commit similar acts yourself.
By: Mr Merry - 11th November 2013 at 19:30
trumper of course the Chief of Defence can not support clemency to Marine A, it’s not PC correct. His career would be over in an instant.
Anyone remember ‘The troubles in Northern Ireland’ we went over there and our hands were tied behind our backs, fine for the IRA to kill as and when they wanted. Rules of Engagement took lifes.
Not unlike Afganistan.
By: Mr Merry - 11th November 2013 at 19:19
this is a multi cultural country and the majority of people who come here and become British citizens contribute a great deal to this countries economy and live in peace and harmony.The ones I want to see leave are those who would do us harm or insist in changing things for their own ends.
I agree, after the murder of Lee Rigby I did predicted a backlash against honest law abiding hard working Muslims, sadly it happened. Trouble is the ones that you would like to see leave, as I would, are UK citizens. Where are they going to be sent?
By: trumper - 11th November 2013 at 19:12
By: John Green - 11th November 2013 at 19:09
Re 300
And following on from that, how do our forces know who they are? How do we recognise them? How do we know THEY are the enemy if they look like Farmer Ahmed in the next field ? We pitch up, we shake theiir hands and offer a fag. They produce an AK47 and let fly. You’re a section/platoon commander – as I was – what do you do. The situation requires an immediate response if you are to protect the lives of your section/platoon?
At this point we’ll sit down with the tribal elders and consider, just for a moment the provisions of the EU Human rights Act.? Yeah ! That’s likely isn’t it. In the meantime, we musn’t be provocative and do anything to annoy this bunch of Taliban in plain clothes – hang on, they’re all in plain clothes.
We have to consider public opinion back home. If we get maimed or killed it is considered to be less, much less important than the life of a seriously injured Taliban who anyway is doomed. Keeping up appearances is so important. Whiter than white, that’s us. The bar of world opinion – that really matters. Always let them fire first. Then we can say we were provoked. That’ll be ok. That’ll satisfy informed public opinion. Whats a few slaughtered Marines?
By: charliehunt - 11th November 2013 at 19:07
From a man who has been there.
And another who has.
“The Chief of the Defence Staff General Sir Nicholas Houghton said that “murder is murder, this is a heinous crime”
Gen Houghton said: “No serviceman or woman of the British Armed Forces is above the law – not above the law of the country, international law or the law of armed conflict.
“This was a heinous crime. Judicial process has found this individual guilty. It would be quite wrong for the armed forces to adopt some special pleading, some sort of exemption.
“Those in authority over the armed forces should not request any form of leniency… we should be immaculate in these respects. Murder is murder, this is a heinous crime, thankfully it is an exceptional act in terms of the conduct of our armed forces.”
By: paul178 - 11th November 2013 at 19:07
British when they want something from the state!
Being British to me is supporting my country right or wrong,if you don’t like it leave. I don’t expect special treatment on political or religious grounds and I don’t expect any half baked nit wits to pussyfoot around me nor do I expect any minorities to get special treatment either. Live here obey the laws contribute to society and turn in the trouble makers to the authorities is all I ask.
#282 Reread what I wrote. Where did I advocate something along the lines of a holocaust? All I said and that applies to ALL BRITISH Citizens no matter what their ethnic background. If you don’t like it here Foxtrot Oscar to some where else(lots have) I repeat so you can get it into your thick head this is a multi cultural country and the majority of people who come here and become British citizens contribute a great deal to this countries economy and live in peace and harmony.The ones I want to see leave are those who would do us harm or insist in changing things for their own ends. Does that clarify matters?
By: Creaking Door - 11th November 2013 at 18:56
If I had in the middle of military action to make a decision that had implications for my conscience, one possible answer would be for me to consider the welfare of the greater number. To do the greater good and the lesser evil. In situations that require a lightning response, the luxury of considered thinking might not be available…
And I don’t think anybody would criticize such a ‘lightning response’ made under combat conditions but we’re not talking about that are we…
…the audio-recording of the conversation of Marine A clearly show that a decision was made between himself and those around him, firstly, not to administer first-aid, secondly, to execute the wounded enemy, and thirdly, to move him to a position so that they couldn’t be observed, and finally, to shoot him in such a way (chest-shot not head-shot) that would not arouse suspicion.
I know there are going to be ‘grey-areas’ in combat, nobody is disputing that, but what there cannot be is ‘absolution’ for any act carried-out ‘in combat’.
By: Richard gray - 11th November 2013 at 18:56
From a man who has been there.
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October 27, 2013 at 1:02 am