Russia-China military cooperation on the rocks
HONG KONG, Aug. 24
ANDREI CHANG
China is running into problems in its military technology dealings with Russia. The country has postponed high-level military talks on defense technology and stopped all new military contracts until Russia delivers an overdue shipment of aircraft, according to industry sources in both countries.
China has also complained about the quality of Russian weapons. Russian dealers, on the other hand, are upset about blatant Chinese imitations of their products, built from designs supplied in the understanding that the weapons were to be purchased.
The aircraft issue involves a deal signed in 2005 whereby China agreed to purchase from Russia 30 IL-76 transport aircraft and eight IL-78 aerial refueling tankers. However, Tashkent Aircraft Plant, based in the capital of Uzbekistan, which was to have manufactured the IL-76 and IL-78, declared soon after the signing that the plant was unable to build the planes independently due to financial and technical problems.
To resolve this issue, Russia has given three proposals to the Chinese side, according to a source from Rosoboroonexport, a state-owned military trading company. One is to coproduce the plane’s parts in Tashkent and Russian Ulianovsk or Voronezh aviation factories, with final assembly of the IL-76 in Voronezh. The second is to fully manufacture the aircraft in Russia. The third is to assemble all the planes in Tashkent with most of the parts produced in Russia.
Whichever solution is selected, additional investment will be required from the Russian side to add new equipment to the Ulianovsk and Voronezh aviation factories. Consequently, Rosoboroonexport has asked the Chinese partner to accept a higher price for the aircraft.
China’s response has been to twice postpone an annual high-level conference on cooperation in defense technology. Beijing has indicated that the condition to restart the talks is for Russia to fulfill the aircraft contract. Russia contends that the existence of this problem is reason enough to hold new discussions, without any condition.
This Chinese tendency to set preconditions for political talks and other negotiations is well-known to U.S. and Japanese negotiators. Now the strategy is being applied to the Russians.
To add salt to the wound, China has also criticized the quality of some Russian weapons it previously purchased. For example, it has complained of the short service life of optical/electronic detection devices (IRST) for the SU-27SK fighter. The Russian factory has deflected the blame, saying the problems are caused by improper usage. Photos of the IRST used for the Chinese air force’s SU-27SK show that they are used without protective coverings even in inclement weather.
One of the biggest buyers of Russian arms, the Chinese air force, or PLAAF, has purchased 100 advanced Su30MKK multipurpose fighters and 48 earlier version SU-27SK fighters. It also obtained license production rights for the 200 SU-27SK, which started in 1996. However, the contract was suspended after 95 China-made J11A were completed last year. Russia reportedly backed out of the deal due to technical reservations.
The Chinese navy also received 12 Kilo Class 877/636 diesel submarines and four Type 956E/EM missile destroyers, other naval subsystems for Chinese carriers, and new warships as well as more than eight battalions of S-300PMU/PMU-1 and another eight battalions of S-300PMU-2 long range surface-to-air missiles, deployed by the Chinese air force in recent decades.
For its part, Moscow is unhappy with China’s massive production of imitation versions of Russian weapons. Many Russian arms manufacturers have told the Western press how surprised they were by the scale of China’s copycat capabilities. In many cases, Chinese dealers will express their intention to purchase Russian arms, begin negotiations, ask as many technical questions as possible, take photos and videos of the weapons, request all available documents, come back to the table to “discuss” more technical issues, and after a few more “negotiations,” the dealers disappear. Two or three years later, a Chinese copy of the weapon under discussion appears on the international market.
A typical example is the Chinese A100 multiple launch rocket system (MLRS), an imitation of the Russian SMERCH MLRS, without even superficial changes in shape. The Chinese PLZ05 155-mm self-propelled gun (SPG) system is also a copy of the Russian 2S19M1 SPG.
The same trick has been used by the air force and navy. In the mid-1990s, China asked the Russian Phazotron Radar Design Bureau to help the PLAAF to upgrade their F8II fighters. For this purpose, China purchased two ZHUK-8II airborne radars from Phazotron. Certainly many technical documents were transferred, as the Chinese had promised to buy at least 100 of the radar devices. But, the Chinese never came back. Two years ago, the new Chinese F8IIM fighter was released with the new “indigenous multi-function radar.”
“That is a copy of our radar,” the designer of Phazotrol told this author. “We were so inexperienced at that time.”
Along with the Type 956E/EM missile destroyer, the Chinese navy received subsystems from Russia including the Fregat M2EM 3D radar and MR-90 tracking radar and sonar. The same radar system has been seen on China’s domestic Type 054A missile frigate (FFG).
“This is our radar!” was the first comment by Russian designers from Salyut factory when they saw photos of the 054A FFG taken from far. After more careful examination, they added, “Unbelievable, the speed at which they were copied.”
Italy and France had similar experiences during their military cooperation honeymoon with China in the 1980s. At that time, China purchased two sets of Sea Tiger shipborne radars, two sets of Crotale air defense missiles, and two sets of the TAVITAC naval command and control systems from France, and a few sets of the sonar and EW systems from Italy. Chinese versions of the above systems are fitted on Chinese navy battleships today.
—
(Andrei Chang is editor-in-chief of Kanwa Defense Review, published in Hong Kong.)
Unicorn
By: vikasrehman - 22nd October 2007 at 22:49
Just like Gorshkov price issue. Making statements without substance. Russians arent scared. they have 60% positive view of China.
http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=256
offcourse they will make laws that can be applied for various purposes. (read georgia).
Star49, I came across that poll earlier, and what surprised me was not the actual 60% figure but the fact that in spite of increaing chinese influence round the globe, the figure has stayed the same since when compared with 2005.
By: sealordlawrence - 21st October 2007 at 20:31
Just like Gorshkov price issue. Making statements without substance. Russians arent scared. they have 60% positive view of China.
http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=256
offcourse they will make laws that can be applied for various purposes. (read georgia).
Stop posting here.
By: star49 - 21st October 2007 at 20:01
That article is part BS. It neglects the fact that a large part of the Russian population is terrified of the Chinese, to the extent that huge numbers of them were recently expelled. The Russian far east is de-populating fast and there are 1.2billion chinese ready to fill the gap.
Just like Gorshkov price issue. Making statements without substance. Russians arent scared. they have 60% positive view of China.
http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=256
offcourse they will make laws that can be applied for various purposes. (read georgia).
By: Arabella-Cox - 21st October 2007 at 19:39
That article is part BS. It neglects the fact that a large part of the Russian population is terrified of the Chinese, to the extent that huge numbers of them were recently expelled. The Russian far east is de-populating fast and there are 1.2billion chinese ready to fill the gap.
Really, the article has more fiction than fact……….:eek: Regardless, any major partnership between China and Russia. Just strengthens the US relationship with Europe and Asia. Further, it may even encourage India to move more towards the West than ever before!;)
By: sealordlawrence - 20th October 2007 at 14:12
That article is part BS. It neglects the fact that a large part of the Russian population is terrified of the Chinese, to the extent that huge numbers of them were recently expelled. The Russian far east is de-populating fast and there are 1.2billion chinese ready to fill the gap.
By: young - 20th October 2007 at 11:35
Sino-Russian embrace leaves US out in the cold
The Sino-Russian embrace leaves the US out in the cold
Moscow and Beijing are closer now than in the Communist period. An anxious America is left struggling to be heard
Jonathan Steele
Friday October 12, 2007
The Guardian
It was quite a shock for some Russians in a rural backwater of the Urals recently to see lorry-loads of Chinese troops go by. True, they were not pointing their guns at the babushkas but many people panicked, wondering how Chinese forces had reached parts of central Russia, a feat not achieved by either the Nazis or Napoleon’s army.
Those who watched local television knew this was a joint exercise, the first of such magnitude, between Russian forces and over a thousand men of the People’s Liberation Army – and the most startling evidence so far of the extraordinarily cordial relations between Moscow and Beijing.
It has become a commonplace of international diplomacy that Russia and China often work together on key issues. They have frustrated western hopes for sanctions or other tough action on disputes ranging from Burma and Darfur to Iran. They are blocking a solution on Kosovo. What few in the west have spotted is that Sino-Russian rapprochement has reached such a point that the two huge countries’ relations with each other are far warmer than either US-Russian or US-Chinese relations. In other words, the famous US-Russia-China triangle Nixon and Kissinger created by their path-breaking overtures to Beijing in the early 1970s is completely reversed.
China, in those Maoist days, was mired in a mixture of international quarantine and self-imposed isolation, feared by the Soviet Union and hated by the US. The two Americans dramatically broke the mould. They cleverly manipulated Mao’s ideological rivalry with Moscow to bring China back into the global arena and thereby infuriate and put pressure on the Soviets. This helped to ease the US retreat from Vietnam.
Now Russia and China are together and the US is out of the loop. It is a stark fact that Condoleezza Rice and defence secretary Robert Gates cannot ignore today as they start two days of talks in Moscow. No more easy concessions from Moscow and Beijing. Both powers are big boys and can bargain as hard as anyone from Washington, whether neocon or “realist”.
Russia’s friendship with China is not just a ploy by their elites. It has grassroots resonance. As Oxana Antonenko, a senior fellow at the International Institute for Strategic Studies points out, many Russians now see China as their country’s closest partner. The number of Russians who feel China is a friend, according to a recent poll, is more than double the number who feel that about the US. Some 24% of Russians fear clashes with America in the near future. Only 4% see a chance of that with China.
These pro-Chinese views are particularly strong in the Russian far east, an area in which analysts used to detect Sinophobia, based on fears that China’s booming population would covet eastern Siberia’s rich resources and vast open spaces. Human contact, and economic benefit, have had the opposite effect. About 200,000 Chinese now live in Russia. This may not sound much compared with the numbers of Chinese in the US, Australia, or southeast Asia, but in Russia Chinese settlement started from a zero base a decade ago.
Many more Chinese come in seasonally to plant and pick crops, not just in the border areas but deep into European Russia. Mixed marriages are common, and reports say that one of the favourite pastimes of Chinese teenagers living across the river Amur from the Russian city of Blagoveshchensk is to train binoculars on the girls going by, pick out a likely local lass, cross over and woo her – and then live in Russia.
The countries’ economies differ – one reliant on exports of energy, the other on low-wage industrial products, but they are complementary. Each is a good customer of the other. At the policy level, their partnership functions most strikingly in the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation, a body established six years ago. Working less formally until then as the Shanghai Five (other members were Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, and Tajikistan), the group succeeded in resolving all the outstanding Sino-Russian disputes over the borderline.
Now the SCO helps to accelerate Russia’s rising military links with China, not only the export of weapons but also in licensing and joint production. It has proved so successful that India, Pakistan and Iran want to join, presenting the SCO with the same widening-versus-deepening dilemmas that the EU knows so well. Members are not in full agreement on how to proceed. China prefers to focus on regional economic links, Russia on military partnership and strategic concerns. But they share the view that by working together they can reduce US and western pressure while also preventing unwelcome democratisation of the “colour revolution” type.
As Russia moves back from the freedoms of the Gorbachev and Yeltsin years, its internal politics increasingly resemble China’s. Beijing tightens controls on activist websites and peasant protesters in advance of next year’s Olympics. The Kremlin squeezes radical critics out of the December contest for seats in parliament. Unlike China, Russia is still nominally a multiparty system, but its ruling party is virtually unassailable.
Putin’s surprise decision last week to put himself at the head of the electoral list of the ruling party, United Russia, has lifted it to 54% in the polls. The Communists, on 6%, might not even break the 7% barrier required to get into the Duma. No doubt Putin’s people will rectify that, since they want at least one quasi-opponent around, in addition to the phoney pro-Kremlin parties they have created. The two other ways that Russians could express opposition have been abolished. The right to vote “against all” is dropped. Low turnout will no longer invalidate an election.
Hinting he may become prime minister, Putin has found the best way to get round the bar on a third consecutive term as president. The constitution describes the president as commander-in-chief, but it does not say he controls the foreign ministry and security structures. A presidential decree does that. In the remaining months of his term, Putin could sign a new decree giving control over them to the prime minister. It would be a masterstroke.
Whether their system is best described as “bureaucratic capitalism” or “authoritarian capitalism”, Russia and China are firmer friends today than they were in their Communist period. They have given a new meaning to “triangulation”. The west should take note.
By: Gollevainen - 18th September 2007 at 13:28
I’ve met many nationalists who think otherwise. We’ve a few Russians here in Japan too, and they’re no better as well when it comes to nationalistic sentiments.
As far as i’m experienced, none is better from another when it comes to nationalism, its more down to different factors like age and stuff:rolleyes:
By: RyukyuRhymer - 18th September 2007 at 13:14
All these does not matter anymore. China and Russia have neatly agreed on these matters of border and treaty.
If only more minds were like yours.
Unfortunately, I’ve met many nationalists who think otherwise. We’ve a few Russians here in Japan too, and they’re no better as well when it comes to nationalistic sentiments. 🙁
By: crobato - 18th September 2007 at 02:13
All these does not matter anymore. China and Russia have neatly agreed on these matters of border and treaty.
By: RyukyuRhymer - 17th September 2007 at 09:08
To be prefectly honest, it is the FAR EAST. It’s not really Russian. That land was originally part of the Chinese Empire before being stolen by the Russians.
Just as Europe remained European after the invasion by the Huns and Turks, the “Russian” Far East will remain East Asian long after the Russian invasion.
The Russian Far Eastern lands were home to Tungusic, Turkic and Mongol speaking minorities (like the Nanai, Evenki, Yakuts, etc) before either the Chinese or Russians came and conquered their lands. Sadly these days they only speak Russian or Chinese, except for the Yakuts and Buryats who held on to their identity a bit better.
the areas the Qing lost are only the maritime provinces in south eastern Russian Far East, and some border areas in Western Siberia. Russian Far Eastern areas like Kamchatka, Yakutia, etc were never part of it and only conquered by outside forces when the Russians first arrived. In addition, many of these areas only became part of China during the Qing dynasty only. Qing enforcement of these areas were often sparse and lax until the Russians started coming in.
By: aniki - 14th September 2007 at 04:02
if memory didnt fail me, Pinkov is a mainland born Chinese (some say he belonged to some minor nationalities in china, ie ‘Zhuang’ or ‘Dai’ minorities in Yunnan province, southwest China). he seems to have suffered some ‘unjust treatment’ during the cultural revolution years, and fled china soon after the end of Mao’s reign. Pinkov is only his pen name. Kanwa is supposed to be his main source of income.
so his biasness against China is understandable, but his accuracy is somewhat questionable. Chinese have taken shots of him in recent Zhuhai and other military fairs and posted his pics all over the Chinese internet.
By: snake65 - 5th September 2007 at 17:23
To be prefectly honest, it is the FAR EAST. It’s not really Russian. That land was originally part of the Chinese Empire before being stolen by the Russians.
Just as Europe remained European after the invasion by the Huns and Turks, the “Russian” Far East will remain East Asian long after the Russian invasion.
OK, OK Asia is Chinese Empire. Could You just stop flaming and say something on thread subject?
By: TangoLima1 - 5th September 2007 at 03:42
I was in HK this spring. Yes. You can buy Kanwa’s KDR off the newstands and from bookstores over there.
There is a model store in Sham Shui Po called Concord Hobby Shop at 331 Lai Chi Kok Road, ground floor at intersection of Kweilin Street which sells back issues of KDR. I chatted a bit with the store proprieter who seems to be the local distributor for KDR. According to him Pinkov has a Japanese wife.
I find KDR’s english translations very “awkward”. For example, they translate tank tracks as “creepers”.
Concord also sells Taiwanese Chinese language defense magazines
Defence International (www.diic.com.tw) and Defense Technology Monthly (www.dtmonline.com).
By: GoldenDragon - 5th September 2007 at 03:18
Heck! The Chinese don’t need no war against Russia. The Russian far east is turning Chinese anyway!
To be prefectly honest, it is the FAR EAST. It’s not really Russian. That land was originally part of the Chinese Empire before being stolen by the Russians.
Just as Europe remained European after the invasion by the Huns and Turks, the “Russian” Far East will remain East Asian long after the Russian invasion.
By: hallo84 - 4th September 2007 at 23:42
So a Russian is supposely being “influenced/inspired” by the Japanese to publish articles based on Chinese sources in a Canadian magazine?
Doesn’t this all sound a bit paranoid?
I really don’t know how Chinese intellectual property laws apply to “Japanese-influenced/Japanese-inspired” Russians who write for Canadian publications?
Pinkovs analysis is mostly worthless but he does have sources within the Russian military industrial complex so his reports on Chinese military imports are roughly accurate. Although He is routinly proven wrong on stipulated Russian involvement in indigenous Chinese projects.
Pinkov only have so many fact to throw at the target audience but is required to fill a quota to earn his paycheck. His self annotated analysis is just filler and rehash of conspiracy theories already floating about. This is also true for many analysis out in public media.
By: Distiller - 4th September 2007 at 07:23
Heck! The Chinese don’t need no war against Russia. The Russian far east is turning Chinese anyway!
By: crobato - 4th September 2007 at 03:11
No he’s not Russian but uses a Russian pen name and appears to be able to talk Russian and Japanese fluently. It is published in Canada and I think Chang is Canadian-Chinese. But he also knows publishes in Hong Kong where you can buy copies off the street. He also publishes a Taiwan and a Japanese version.
By: TinWing - 3rd September 2007 at 21:47
Quote:
Originally Posted by 21Ankush
Analysis: Russia-China military cooperation on the rocks
HONG KONG, Aug. 24
ANDREI CHANGAndrei Chang a.k.a. Yihong Chang a.k.a. Pinkov is often quoted
to be the ‘editor’ of Kanwa publication (allegedly a Canadian
Publication). However, many believed him to a Japanese-influenced /
Japanese-inspired reporter.
Andrei Chang a.k.a. Yihong Chang a.k.a. Pinkov is notoriously
known for ‘sourcing’ his stories & pictures by combing through
& copying both articles & pictures from Chinese-language magazines,
articles & original writings.
In fact, he is so well known for pilfering stuff from other writers that many articles in Chinese magazines &
internet postings carried warnings specifically
directed at him: NOT TO BE COPIED BY PINKOV.If this article is indeed written by the same man, it is a supreme
Irony indeed – written by a man who knows all about copying!!
So a Russian is supposely being “influenced/inspired” by the Japanese to publish articles based on Chinese sources in a Canadian magazine?
Doesn’t this all sound a bit paranoid?
I really don’t know how Chinese intellectual property laws apply to “Japanese-influenced/Japanese-inspired” Russians who write for Canadian publications?
By: young - 3rd September 2007 at 20:25
Quote:
Originally Posted by 21Ankush
Analysis: Russia-China military cooperation on the rocks
HONG KONG, Aug. 24
ANDREI CHANG
Andrei Chang a.k.a. Yihong Chang a.k.a. Pinkov is often quoted
to be the ‘editor’ of Kanwa publication (allegedly a Canadian
Publication). However, many believed him to a Japanese-influenced /
Japanese-inspired reporter.
Andrei Chang a.k.a. Yihong Chang a.k.a. Pinkov is notoriously
known for ‘sourcing’ his stories & pictures by combing through
& copying both articles & pictures from Chinese-language magazines,
articles & original writings.
In fact, he is so well known for pilfering stuff from other writers that many articles in Chinese magazines &
internet postings carried warnings specifically
directed at him: NOT TO BE COPIED BY PINKOV.
If this article is indeed written by the same man, it is a supreme
Irony indeed – written by a man who knows all about copying!!
By: star49 - 29th August 2007 at 15:29
That’s nonsense. I would trust the British press a lot more than either the Chinese or Russian ones. That doesn’t mean they don’t make mistakes, but to imply they’re somehow “especially unreliable” on China/Russia because critics live here is not logical. Making vague comments about “spy and dissidents” is childish.
If you want to say any newspaper report from anywhere should be taken with a pinch of salt, no problem.
What I find interesting is that the article implies China is still essentially laying claim to parts of the Russian Far East, despite the fact officially it recognised Russian control of it some years ago. I thought that China had given up its claims, but maybe it was an act – certainly some Chinese I have talked to don’t believe China honestly gave up its claims back then, or at the least a future Chinese government could still assert its rights over it.
where i quoted a Russian press. i am referring to official statements and policy papers of russian offiicals. and they dont make policies based on journalist opinions or some dissident living aboard. they have vast intelligence network backed by money. they know alot more than what comes out in news media and they already have made a choice.
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August 25, 2007 at 12:14 pm