Russian ATGMs?

I believe that the Vikhr has considerable launch constraints. The missile goes ballistic if it can’t find the laser beam early in its flight, before the beam spreads out (hence the depressible launchers). In addition if the launch platform moves laterally the missile will no longer be in between the launcher and the target (and out of the beam).

As far as I know the Vikhr has very few launch constraints and a rather high hit probability out to 10km. In normal operation against ground vehicles it has an impact fuze, while when used in the air to air role it has a proximity fuse with a range of up to 5m. When fired from 10km range there should not be much need to manouver too much… and of course weapons like wire guided TOW and HOT would also make manouvering impossible for the launch platform… the main reason that most western helos had the standard launch practise of hovering… a tactic that has proved very dangerous in real combat situations.

I believe that the Vikhr has considerable launch constraints. The missile goes ballistic if it can’t find the laser beam early in its flight, before the beam spreads out (hence the depressible launchers). In addition if the launch platform moves laterally the missile will no longer be in between the launcher and the target (and out of the beam).

Laser beam field have quite large volume, so in fact it is hard for missile to miss it. Addidionally, missile doesnt have to be between launch platform and target – the exact traectory is up to launch platform. The very fact what russians used such method instead of much simpler and already quite reliable radio-command method speaks volumes about reliabilty of laser beam riding guidance.

Btw. I was under the impression that the Hermes was planned to be dual radio command guided and laser beam rider (allowing two missiles to be fired – one using each system).

Hermes is unified project for a whole family of missiles with different ranges and guidance. Saying “Hermes” without specifications is like saying “F-15” without mentioning if it is F-15A, C or E.

Khrizantema-S (AT-15) has been in service with the Russian Army for several years now – 2003/2004, if I remember correctly. Kornet has been in service for longer than that.

I believe that the Vikhr has considerable launch constraints. The missile goes ballistic if it can’t find the laser beam early in its flight, before the beam spreads out (hence the depressible launchers). In addition if the launch platform moves laterally the missile will no longer be in between the launcher and the target (and out of the beam).

I remember reading a speculative article by a Russian scientist arguing that there would eventually be a division between two types of Russian ATGMs – one would be a line of sight, laser guided, hypersonic weapon (a Vikhr that merges with the sabot type of deployment and characteristics) and a fire and forget short range missile. I personally think the ideal for the latter would be a simultaneous multiple missile radio command guidance system. It could be cued by either optical or radar and would allow multiple target engagement at a low per round cost. Of course, this would only be accurate a short ranges (<8km).

Btw. I was under the impression that the Hermes was planned to be dual radio command guided and laser beam rider (allowing two missiles to be fired – one using each system).

The krisantema is currently a ground based ATGM with a day and night range of 6km that can be used in any weather or condition. Whiteouts, brown outs (ie snow storms and dust storms respectively) monsoon rain etc, day or night.

They operate with a dual guidance system with SARH with MMW radar as one guidance channel and SALH or laser beam riding (ie the same as Vikhr) as the alternate channel. Using both channels two targets can be simultaneously engaged by one vehicle. The vehicle itself is based on the BMP-3 chassis and uses an automated launcher arm.

Looking at the guidance methods it is possible that the Mi-28N could use the Krisantema as it will have laser beam riding weapon capability and also with its MMW radar and CM wave radar will no doubt be able to guide a missile based on data received from a MMW radar.

The fact that the production Mi-28Ns seem to have the thimble nose radio antenna on its nose suggests the ATAKA and Shturm will remain part of the weapon fit (the antenna has no other purpose).

I believe this is the latest Russian ATGM, the “Chrysanthemum”(a flower).:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9StN1oNNCA

Hrisanteme (chrysanthemum) is new russian missle system wich may destroy any existent and next tanks even with “dynamic” (reactive)armor (over 1 meter).Besides its missles (the best ones nowadays!) have supersonic speed and also may eliminate concrete bunkers,buildings, low flying aircrafts and helicopters, storm-boats.3 such units may destroy over 14 tanks!2 pointing system – radio-locating (automaticaly detects and tracking target, tracking missile, 100-150GH) and lazar – provides attacking 2 targets in a time.
ammunitions – 15 missiles (armour-piercing or high-explosive heads)
Crew – 2
Source: gromoslawski@youtube

What is the functional and effective differences between the various types of modern Russian ATGMs on the attack helicopter market today?

Functional and effective?

The Vikhr is a laser beam riding missile, which means it has a sensor in its tail looking back at the launch platform for its entire flight. Because the laser senser is looking directly at the laser emitter then the power of the emitter can be four orders of magnitiude less powerful than a laser designed to mark targets. (4 orders of magnitude is 10,000 times less powerful). Engaging a target at 8km range a laser target marker would have to reflect back to the launch aircraft… a range of 16km. A dark nonreflective target might not be able to be locked by such a system. For Vikhr this is not a problem. Also with the missile sensor looking back at the launch aircraft it is not effected by jammers or dazzlers.
The other missile widely available is the Shturm/Ataka system which uses a radio command guidance system.

In both cases the helo can manouver while controling its missile unlike western helos firing wire guided weapons like TOW or HOT.

The Vikhr is a fully dual role weapon able to engage slow/low aircraft as well as armour and is slightly faster than the ATAKA. The figures I have seen given for Russian ATGMs in western publications have been woeful, including those listed in AFM. The Vikhrs average flight speed is approximiately 610m/s, while Shturm is 420m/s and Ataka is 400m/s.

Armour penetration figures are Shturm, 650mm, Ataka, 800mm, and Vikhr, 1,000mm under ERA.

The performance of the Vikhr/Shkval system was a main reason the Ka-50 beat the Mi-28A in the early 80s for a replacement for the Mi-24. The cost of the Vikhr and the Shkval system was rather high however and few were made and none were exported as far as I know.

There is likely a new ATGM replacement for Ataka/Shturm though the former might be kept in service simply because they are so cheap and certainly effective enough to deal with anything Russian Helos are likely to come up against. The replacement largely made necessary because MMW radar guided munitions would better suit the FCS of the Mi-28N.

I know that they’re offered by competing manufacturers and different Russian manufacturers favor different designs, but are the systems incompatible? Can an Mi-28 be configured to fire either the Ataka and/or Hermes, for example?

Ataka and Shturm use radio command guidance… hense the black thimble on the Mi-28As nose and on the nose of the Mi-28N and next to the optics sensor on the Hind. The Vikhr requires a stabilised laser and Eo system like Shkval or Shkval-M as fitted to the Ka-50 or Su-25TM. Such systems would almost certainly be fitted as standard to the Mi-28N anyway so I would expect it could carry such a system and such weapons.

Hermes is very likely to be used by the Mi-28N even if just in a MMW radar guided or IIR guided version.

Will be interesting to see what the makers of the Shturm and Ataka will come up with.

Main problem with guessing is that like the R-33S what is for export is not necessarily what is for domestic use. Using Helos in built up areas like in Chechnia a good HE warhead and accurate guidance are far more important than penetration figures. As such Shturm and Ataka are still very useful. No doubt they have plenty in stock and are happy to use them up when possible.
The problem for the new missile is to be cheap enough to be able to be bought in enough numbers to be viable economically. I would expect that Shturm and ataka will remain in production for existing helos and that whatever new weapon is developed or used on the new MMW radar equipped helos will likely have a cheap command guided version to compliment the more expensive models.

1. Shturm – old 70x development, since then upgraded – but considered already absolote.
2. Ataka,Vikhr – Vihr is newer, and when first appeared had considerable advantage compared to Ataka (higher speed,etc). But Ataka was also upgraded since then and now they are very close to each other in capabilities. Basically, they are much the same from different manufactures.
3. Hermes – future “unified” project. Planned both air-lauched and ground-based versions, with different warheads, ranges, and guided methods. Without further specificaton it is impossbile to tell anything just by name “Hermes”. For example, range differs from 20 to 100+km, guide methods from radio-command to active radar and IR (TI matrix) homing.

IIRC the range quoted for Hermes is 20km as opposed to 10km for previous generation Russian helicopter launched missiles.

I may as well ask a question I’ve been wondering about, while this thread is still on the first page.

What is the functional and effective differences between the various types of modern Russian ATGMs on the attack helicopter market today?

Off the top of my head, I know that the Shturm, Ataka, Vikhr, and Hermes are all out there right now.

Of those, I heard a rumor that Vikhr isn’t offered anymore, is that the case? I know that most of the platforms that the Vikhr was offered for now has the Hermes as an option.

I’d assume Shturm to be the low-end of these, but I don’t really know.

I know that they’re offered by competing manufacturers and different Russian manufacturers favor different designs, but are the systems incompatible? Can an Mi-28 be configured to fire either the Ataka and/or Hermes, for example?

Thanks in advance,

Logan Hartke

With the Mi-28N entering service shortly, I would expect the first service MMW radar homing ATGMs the Russians have will be ATAKA based though a mix might make financial and tactical sense. The radio command guided ATAKA can pretty much be fired at anything while IIR and MMW radar guided weapons require a specific signature to lock on to.
Have seen Javelin demos where banks of heaters are lined up in front of old hulk tank targets so that the targets are able to be aquired by Javelins seeker. Most modern tanks have significant IR signatures while moving but when in a fixed location Soviet tanks have small auxillery power units that give off minimal IR signature and generate enough power to run the electronics and operate the tank when stationary and with the main engine off.

Just before retiring in 2004 the then commander-in-chief of the Russian Ground Forces, General of the Army Nikolay Kormiltsev gave an interview to the Russian military newspaper Krasnaya Zvezda, in which he stated that new fire-and-forget versions of the Tula KBP Kornet-E (AT-14) anti-tank missile had been developed.

These could be equipped with a “thermal or radio-locating homing head”, he stated, and represented a third generation Kornet that was “very simple to use”.

He gave no further details, and did not indicate if it was in service, or if it could be fired from upgraded versions of existing firing posts.

To date, however, there has been no sign of such a missile.

In 1999, Jane’s Missiles & Rockets reported that the St Petersburg-based Systema design bureau had tested a 3mm-band active-radar millimetric-wave seeker.

During ground-based trials and flight tests (presumably carry trials) this experimental seeker had detected multiple rocket launchers, self-propelled guns, tracked vehicles, and vans at ranges of 500m to 2,800 m. The Jane’s report included seeker imagery.

There has been no further news of this project. Although the seeker was small enough in diameter to fit a Hellfire-sized weapon – the antenna diameter was 12cm – it may not have been intended for such a role. According to Systema, it was designed to lock onto targets within the error zone anticipated for mid-course inertial guidance.

Mercurius Cantabrigiensis

Anyone have any news on current Russian ATGMs being either developed or adopted into army service?

Is the AT-14/15 currently the standard issue?

Seems like they are lacking fire-and-forget missiles like the Javelin?

Haven’t seen any news really so wondering if anyone could shed some light on the Russian ATGM program…

Fire and forget ATGMs would be nice, but have a few limitations and are very expensive.

For most roles the fire and forget capability is not worth as much as you might think.
First of all the target must have an IR signature to get a lock on. Most modern Russian tanks have fabric covers that reduce IR radiation that might mean that you need to manually guide your Javelin to target.
Second for most units issued with ATGMs the ability to shoot and scoot is important but at most of the ranges I have seen Javelin demonstrated they might as well use an RPG rather than a very expensive guided missile.

A fire and forget missile might be useful for a recon unit or a guerilla force but if the cost means you only buy 10 of them and are only allowed to use them against certain targets I’d rather have the manually guided missile. The Metis-M for example is incredibly cheap and portable. With a range of 2.5km it has plenty of reach for many battlefield targets like sniper positions, MG nests, bunkers etc. If more range is needed the Kornet with a range of 5.5km should do the job. It could even be used against low slow flying helos.

The only fire and forget ATGM I know of in the Russian inventory is the Sokol-1 fired through the main gun of the T-80U with an optical guidance system that can be cued by laser. It seems to be a diving top attack weapon and may have a similar seeker to Ugroza, which are fitted to unguided aircraft rockets of 57mm – 266mm unguided rockets.