Russian Navy eyes 2016 EIS for new carrier

Russia’s economy isn’t in the same drastic state that it was post the 98 crash. Its getting better and quickly (for a ‘developed nation’ they have a surprisingly fast growth rate). One of the problems is that much of this money is in the private sector and filters to the state sector slowly or not at all. This situation is improving too though and with the additional bonus of the state re-buying shares in companies like Gazprom it will be making it self some serious cash – directly. The Russian defense budget is increasing too and this year the procurement budget is larger than the export income (some USD6 billion). This basically means that for the first time in a long time Russia is investing more into its own military industrial complex than is coming in from abroad. Furthermore, the federal reserve is now larger than ever before which means that even in the event of a crash in the global oil price or some other calamatous event the Russian economy shouldn’t crash. These are all very positive things both for Russia as a country but also for future Russian military development.

That said, I still think that a carrier is a waste of money – the Kuznetsov did nothing during its service time and is doing nothing right now and I can’t imagine what the new carrier would do… except maybe; nothing.

uh.. what’s wrong with “the way things are going in russia now”

what do u people even know? seriously..

i bet all u hear about is rich assholes who dont pay taxes who got screwed over by the federal government.. and that makes russian economy automatically “bad” right?

sigh..

😀 yeah sure, Mr Ivanov.

yeah, as u know correctly, Terrorits are wandering all around like gentlemen. 😀

don u guys think , this thread can be merged with this one??

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=22212

I hope the Mods do the necessary.

Russia is rearming its troops to give them “only the latest arms realistically needed to provide security and parry real, not mythical, threats,” Ivanov said. “First of all is the fight against terrorism.”

😀 yeah sure, Mr Ivanov.

Hmmm a few quetions.

How many are they thinking of building?
Where are they getting the money?
Where would they get the money for the aircraft?
What aircraft are they thinking of putting on it/them?
How are they going to structure their remaining fleet for protection?

hope this one helps Ja,

Russia to Buy More Arms Than It Sells for First Time in Decade

Bloomberg

Russia, whose army struggled to survive after the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, will buy more arms than it sells this year for the first time in a decade as it seeks to modernize its military.

Russia will spend 188 billion rubles ($6.8 billion) on arms this year, compared with the $5.1 billion it earned from arms exports last year, Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov said today in the government’s official newspaper. He didn’t give comparative figures.

Russia is rearming its troops to give them “only the latest arms realistically needed to provide security and parry real, not mythical, threats,” Ivanov said. “First of all is the fight against terrorism.”

Russia blames Chechnya, a landlocked region between the Caspian and Black seas that borders Georgia, for most of the terrorist attacks it has suffered since 1999, when Russia sent its army into the rebellious republic for the second time in four years. Rebel leaders such as Shamil Basayev have taken responsibility for some of the attacks, including the Beslan hostage-taking in September that left at least 339 dead.

Ivanov said Russia probably won’t be able to begin withdrawing its troops from Georgia, which borders Chechnya, before 2010 because it needs “at least four years” to build the infrastructure needed to relocate its military bases there.

NATO Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer said April 21 that Russia had to withdraw its military forces from the former Soviet republic, calling the measure essential to peace in the region and a requirement under international agreements.

No country has more advanced nuclear weapons than Russia, which is now working on developing “modern arms systems,” Ivanov said. “None of our partners or allies knows, or will know, about them until they are tested.”

Russia’s armed forces aren’t “setting aggressive tasks,” Ivanov said. “We should confidently defend our territory and the territories of our allies, in line with those obligations that we have.”

and this can be termed as the initial ‘recovery’ period and w/o any doubt in the future same amount can be expected for the forces, which means that the fund might be made available for the forces.

As for the number of carriers, i hope they get get 3 (1 as reserve) .. but which all yards can build a/c carriers of the size of the Kuzentzov???….. I don know, but I wont be surprised if they are working on a follow-on design of the Gorshkov.

As for the aircraft, I wud love to see the RAC-MiG’s a/c on them

And the case for the fleet protection, they can get on with a follow on design of the Krivak-III class and the new corvettee, which are all they need in nukmbers to protect their home turff.

Neither wud I be surprised if they reactrivate the LUN and mount on them the Yakhonts for a very effective platform for ant CBGs. Actually I want them in Indian Naval units too 😀 as i believe it wud be a very good platform to clean-up any CBGs or any other intimidating fleet.

If the Russians actualy come up with the money to develope this new carrier I will be EXTREMELY surprised. The way things in Russia are going now, there is just NO WAY they will EVER be able to develope it, or any new aircraft to fly off it………and this so called PAK? fighter……it ain’t goin no where. No money for development.

Hmmm a few quetions.

How many are they thinking of building?
Where are they getting the money?
Where would they get the money for the aircraft?
What aircraft are they thinking of putting on it/them?
How are they going to structure their remaining fleet for protection?

Kurojedov said “The more, the better” :diablo:
Kurojedov stated, that they are starting the designing in 2005 and building in 2010. I suppose, he doesn’t expect to be in office at that time, so he can state anything.
They can have some money from their exports to India and China, that goes both for the ship itself and the aircraft.
Russia will not have 5th generation aircraft in near future and there are no time limits set for entering them, Deputy Commander of Russian AF declared.
It means they will have to stick to Su27/MiG29 clones.
They have no remaining fleet practically so it’s not a problem :diablo:
Speaking seriously they have Pyotr Veliky and Nahimov (in repair), couple of Slavas, may be 4 Sovremennys in running order and 6 Udaloys, 1 UdaloyII and 1 Neustrashimy, perhaps 10 Krivaks still, although I think most of them are KrivakIII, belonging to Border Guard. I’m afraid, that when (and if, of course 😉 ) they have this new carrier, most of these ships will be decommed already. They are building a couple of corvettes (may be up to 10) and talking about building 8000 ton frigates (destroyers??), so they may have still some escort for the carrier in let’s say 2016, but all this too speculative to talk about in greater detail.

Hmmm a few quetions.

How many are they thinking of building?
Where are they getting the money?
Where would they get the money for the aircraft?
What aircraft are they thinking of putting on it/them?
How are they going to structure their remaining fleet for protection?

i believe recall reading that russians had problems devoloping catapult system capable of launching the flankers. I am not sure if the problem is related to the weight because F-14 weight about the same.

IIRC the maximum catapult weight of the Tomcat is quite a bit more than the max STO weight of the Flanker. Last I heard US catapults were good for up to 80,000lbs. I believe the A-3Ds actually . . .

“25 August During suitability trials on boardIndependence an A3D piloted by LieutenantCommander Ed Decker took off at a gross weight of84,000 pounds—the heaviest aircraft ever to take offfrom a carrier.”

Towards the end of their careers Vigilantes were pushing 80,000 pounds.

This is very interesting. My guess is that they will go down in size, but the question is how much. Hopefully it will be CATOBAR, and not STOBAR, if they get a class of some size.

an EM cat is possible???…. 5 yrs of working time by the time the construction begin??…. also, I guess the catapult was reasdy for the N-powered carrier that was later dismantkled, so either they go with the steam cat, or develope the EM (with joint funding from India) or retain the STOBAR one ….

A new aircraft too? I wonder what that will be.

I hope its the new a/c that RAC-MiG has been said to be developing, that also makes sense, as I don seem it to be in the size of the Flankers or PAK-FA, so a smaller one with the LO design and internal bays wud be good one which can be carried in numbers.

The takeoff weights listed in Russia’s Arms for the Su-33 list max takeoff weight as 33 tons. For the Su-33KUB it states MTOW as 33 tons from a carrier and 38.5 tons from land. This will be from the long run launch position, not the short ones I presume.

Yes the Flanker cannot in any way take off from tehir maximum weights from the really small Kuznetsov. Mig-29K should be able to, just not the Su-33.

GarryB

Without the heavy AEW or transport or strike aircraft the Kuznetsov doesn’t really need catapaults. The Flankers can already take off at their max weights anyway. The only difference would be the Su-33KUB could take off at 5.5 tons heavier at about 38,500kg instead of the 33,000 kg it and the standard unmodified Su-33 are limited. Considering that no Su-33KUBs are in service a steam catapault makes no sense.

were did u read flankers can take off with max weight with ski jump, every link i have read has said Su-27K can barely takeoff with NTOW from KUZNETSOV

The Russians have recognised that air defence at sea is greatly enhanced by air power. Based on that they seem to be planning future carriers, though likely not Nimitz copies. First of all they have to be able to afford to operate them. Second, unlike the US or Britain they don’t have a strike requirement beyond very basic anti ship. Any strategic strike target would more likely be tackled by Tu-160s and Kh-102s or sub launched LACMs.

i believe recall reading that russians had problems devoloping catapult system capable of launching the flankers. I am not sure if the problem is related to the weight because F-14 weight about the same.

The problem was the funds ran out. The west has spent decades perfecting the heavy, expensive, complicated, and potentially dangerous steam catapault system. The primary purpose behind that is largely to enable the launch of heavier aircraft and aircraft at max weights. Without the heavy AEW or transport or strike aircraft the Kuznetsov doesn’t really need catapaults. The Flankers can already take off at their max weights anyway. The only difference would be the Su-33KUB could take off at 5.5 tons heavier at about 38,500kg instead of the 33,000 kg it and the standard unmodified Su-33 are limited. Considering that no Su-33KUBs are in service a steam catapault makes no sense.

Obviously if they had a ready to use, perfected, steam catapault then they would of course use it and probably further develop the Yak-44, but the advantages are not outweighed by the cost. More likely they will skip a generation and try for an EM cat. And yes I have heard the “why don’t they perfect a steam cat first” reply before, to which I’d say if you are designing a rifle and have no history of designing rifles you look at what is available now and base your work on that, what you don’t do is start with a matchlock and then work up through flint lock and a needle firing and then percussion cap and finally modern breach loading designs.

I wonder if the future internal political and economic constellation of Russia will permit such a project. :rolleyes:

BTW what is the idea/requirement behind a new carrier? Do they plan to patrol the Northern Ice Sea with it or do they (realistically) want to use a single carrier to poke unfriendly regimes in the ass?

Talwar made the following comment on the news at NCIG, it seems reasonable:

They might build it, but the first set timeframe of 2017 seems a LOT more realistic. Nonetheless, if they do build it,they are having some errors. At this moment, all funding is going to submarines. Pantera is in repair, yet Sevmash says the degree of repair and upgrade depends on the funding of it. If that funding is so unsure, where are they going to get the money for new carriers?
Secondly, they don’t have a wharf that is really fit for this at the moment, they don’t even have a wharf that has ever built a carrier!
Third, if money is available, it would be smarter to get their sailors and officers paid (which happens quite unregular and unsufficient), get them food (regular sailors don’t get meat onboard, when you’re at sea that’s a real pain in the ass and quite demotivating) and a good accomodation when they are on land, most of their appartments hardly have heating. Same for bases and ships… (it would also keep the sailors from stealing parts of their own ships to sell)
And of course, they are building corvettes and intend to build frigates in the future, that is not really sufficient to protect a carrier is it? There have been more plans for new aircraft and carriers, yet they haven’t come to materialisation. At this moment, funding is good, but will it stay like that for the future? In Russia this is a very unsure thing and the Admirals of course hope for this, yet are only dreaming of the “good old days”.
At this moment they are building a lot of new ships, I hope they don’t make the same mistake USSR did, forgetting that maintaining these ships also costs money!

(Since we do not see him around here anymore, I decided to post it here.)

Whatever happened to the idea of using Su-27KUBs as AWACS platforms with dorsal radars?

I think they will probably use a carrier version of the PAK-FA. The PAK-FA will be the size of the Flanker, so I think it will be possible to navalize it. A carrier version of the Yak-130 is being developed so that will probably be used as the carrier trainer. I cannot guess what kind of AWACS/AEW aircraft they will use on their carriers, but anything good will be very expensive, so they may stick just to Helicopters or UAVs as their AEW aircraft.

i believe recall reading that russians had problems devoloping catapult system capable of launching the flankers. I am not sure if the problem is related to the weight because F-14 weight about the same.

Well, I don’t think the new class (if it is built at all) will aproach 80,000t. In fact, I will be surprised if we see anything over 50,000t.