Russian Navy News & Discussion Thread

Start a new thread, and try to play nice, will you?

Interesting enough, this incident received much more flashlights than the fatal crash of a F-18 in a residential area of San Diego. With utmost respect to the fatal victims of both tragedies, I must say that some people seem to feel delighted to see a dead man in a Russian vessel. This behaviour is not new.

That is completely incorrect and a deliberate attempt to distort reality.

The F18 incident has been far more widely reported in the open press and nobody here has at any point expressed any ‘joy’ at this absolute tragedy. All I have seen is sadness and anger at the loss of yet another life onboard a Russian warship.

Like I said, if this was a fire in a house with a fatality, it would have made no news. This happened to be on a Russian Navy boat, so it must be significant news. Especially on the state of the better, more important part of the Navy. Or not! It’s a Krivak II for crying out loud – and it’s damn relevant if you have any basic sense of logic. When was the last time, except for the Kursk disaster, that an actual routine, combat-training exercise went wrong? Sure wasn’t even the Nerpa accident, as that was trials.

If Kuznetsov sinks in its upcoming deployment, or if Neustrashimy explodes, or Pyotr Velikiy falls apart – I’ll agree with you on the ‘dire’ state of the RuN.

So what if it is a Krivak II? It should still not be killing its crew, and this fits into a pattern of fatal accidents in the Russian Navy.

The house analogy is fundamentally flawed and shows a lack of understanding, a house is not an institution and certainly not a fighting one. If this incident was a one off then it would be different, but it is not a one off it is just another in a long line of RuN tragedies.

Originally Posted by UAZ
Why do you guys bother arguing with someone like sealordlawrence?

Just ignore him.

The above tranlates as ‘I have no evidence to counter the arguments being made so I am just going to winge linke a baby’

Interesting enough, this incident received much more flashlights than the fatal crash of a F-18 in a residential area of San Diego. With utmost respect to the fatal victims of both tragedies, I must say that some people seem to feel delighted to see a dead man in a Russian vessel. This behaviour is not new.

The state of legacy equipment, lack of resources, standards of training and the relatively large number of accidents and suicides all speak to some significant problems facing the Russian military in general and the Russian Navy in particular.

They are making headway in replacing some kit and also are making creditable progress in facilitating some high profile overseas deployments, but they still have a long way to go. This Frigate was 30+ years old and whether it was being readied for decommissioning or not is irrelevant. If you have crew and/or civilians on board there must be more than lip service paid to DC and to safety procedures.

This is another senseless tragedy where Russians are dying needlessly. My condolences to the family.

Like I said, if this was a fire in a house with a fatality, it would have made no news. This happened to be on a Russian Navy boat, so it must be significant news. Especially on the state of the better, more important part of the Navy. Or not! It’s a Krivak II for crying out loud – and it’s damn relevant if you have any basic sense of logic. When was the last time, except for the Kursk disaster, that an actual routine, combat-training exercise went wrong? Sure wasn’t even the Nerpa accident, as that was trials.

If Kuznetsov sinks in its upcoming deployment, or if Neustrashimy explodes, or Pyotr Velikiy falls apart – I’ll agree with you on the ‘dire’ state of the RuN.

With all due respect, we don’t know the facts of the incident. Let’s extend the sailor some respect — he did give his life in line of duty.

The fact was that he wasn’t a crew member and he rushed to help in a situation that probably didn’t need his help.

You have summed up in your previous post what is happening to the Russian Navy and what they are going through. And that is what I could agree on – they still have a long way to go in order to overcome the problems they are currently experiencing. They went thru hell in 1990’s and it’s not an easy thing to come back to the level they’ve been on just before the break-up of the SU. Entire society was suffering from the change and not only the armed forces and I think that you know that.
It’s not an easy thing to claim something what is based on only one evidence or by looking at only one side of the coin. Multiple sources should be gathered and in depth analysis should be made and conclusion(s) should be drawn from them. And then again it can’t be considered as definite if not confirmed by at least few other researches.
To make it short: it wouldn’t be appropriate to judge upon sheer numbers and stats (they can help, they can help a lot… but often they can not explain every phenomena completely) and other factors (historical, sociological, etc) should be looked upon in order to get clearer picture of an event.

Good Post.

Agree with you fully, the numbers only tell part of the story. The biggest tragedy is the fact that these sailors and yard workers continue to die in statistically significant numbers.

I respectfully disagree. You can’t seperate the two things. The rate of violence speaks to discipline and motivation problems. It also speaks to problems within the chain of command. All of these things when looked at wholistically sertainly paint a picture of an organization that still has a long way to go before they can reach the current state of the art.

You have summed up in your previous post what is happening to the Russian Navy and what they are going through. And that is what I could agree on – they still have a long way to go in order to overcome the problems they are currently experiencing. They went thru hell in 1990’s and it’s not an easy thing to come back to the level they’ve been on just before the break-up of the SU. Entire society was suffering from the change and not only the armed forces and I think that you know that.
It’s not an easy thing to claim something what is based on only one evidence or by looking at only one side of the coin. Multiple sources should be gathered and in depth analysis should be made and conclusion(s) should be drawn from them. And then again it can’t be considered as definite if not confirmed by at least few other researches.
To make it short: it wouldn’t be appropriate to judge upon sheer numbers and stats (they can help, they can help a lot… but often they can not explain every phenomena completely) and other factors (historical, sociological, etc) should be looked upon in order to get clearer picture of an event.

We don’t know what has really happened there – so that makes anybody here unable to judge on this matter.
The suicide and murder rate has nothing to do with this topic, open new thread somewhere else if you want to point that out.

I respectfully disagree. You can’t seperate the two things. The rate of violence speaks to discipline and motivation problems. It also speaks to problems within the chain of command. All of these things when looked at wholistically certainly paint a picture of an organization that still has a long way to go before they can reach the current state of the art.

We know for a fact that this is yet another incident of a sailor dying on a Russian ship in a non-combat scenario. What is truly depressing is that the suicide and murder rate in the Russian army is even higher!:eek:

We don’t know what has really happened there – so that makes anybody here unable to judge on this matter.
The suicide and murder rate has nothing to do with this topic, open new thread somewhere else if you want to point that out.

The state of legacy equipment, lack of resources, standards of training and the relatively large number of accidents and suicides all speak to some significant problems facing the Russian military in general and the Russian Navy in particular.

They are making headway in replacing some kit and also are making creditable progress in facilitating some high profile overseas deployments, but they still have a long way to go. This Frigate was 30+ years old and whether it was being readied for decommissioning or not is irrelevant. If you have crew and/or civilians on board there must be more than lip service paid to DC and to safety procedures.

This is another senseless tragedy where Russians are dying needlessly. My condolences to the family.

Why do you guys bother arguing with someone like sealordlawrence?

Just ignore him.

The above tranlates as ‘I have no evidence to counter the arguments being made so I am just going to winge linke a baby’.:mad:

Why do you guys bother arguing with someone like sealordlawrence?

Just ignore him.

With all due respect, we don’t know the facts of the incident. Let’s extend the sailor some respect — he did give his life in line of duty.

We know for a fact that this is yet another incident of a sailor dying on a Russian ship in a non-combat scenario. What is truly depressing is that the suicide and murder rate in the Russian army is even higher!:eek:

If he was not part of the crew and wasn’t familiar with the ships DC equipment he should of stayed out of the way of the people who knew what they were doing. It sounds like he rushed in without proper fire fighting gear (whatever the Russians use) and was killed for his stupidity.

With all due respect, we don’t know the facts of the incident. Let’s extend the sailor some respect — he did give his life in line of duty.

Maybe you need to re-read my post. Person that died was not from ship’s crew, but i guess in other navies sailors are superhuman and they cannot die from suffocation. And the photos are in enough resolution to be seen that the ship is well maintained.

If he was not part of the crew and wasn’t familiar with the ships DC equipment he should of stayed out of the way of the people who knew what they were doing. It sounds like he rushed in without proper fire fighting gear (whatever the Russians use) and was killed for his stupidity.

What the hell does “crew properly maintained” mean lol? They aren’t exactly an engine boiler 😉

The ship was going to be decommissioned, why would it be well maintained?

This may as well have happened in a house. Fire + closed space = fatality.

He obviously meant keeping the crew well trained in silly little things like I dunno… fire fighting and damage control. Even if the ship is being decommed you keep the crew as well trained as possible.
The ship needs to be maintained until they day they turn out the lights to prevent things like short circuits from killing the people on board, you can’t just stop funding and training a ship on its way out or it will become a dangerous safety hazard to those still on board.

What the hell does “crew properly maintained” mean lol? They aren’t exactly an engine boiler 😉

Pathetic trolling, you knew I meant training.

The ship was going to be decommissioned, why would it be well maintained

As long as there are cre onboard a certain level of safety and thus maintenance should be provided.

This may as well have happened in a house. Fire + closed space = fatality.

But it did not, it happened on a Russian Navy ship and represents yet another occasion where that intitution has had a fatal accident. This continues the shockingly high accident rate in the Russian Navy that is resulting in the needless loss of young lives. You seem to suggest that fires just happen,they do not, they are usually the product of shoddy maintenance or procedure, both of which the Russian navy would be to blame for.:mad:

Maybe you need to re-read my post. Person that died was not from ship’s crew, but i guess in other navies sailors are superhuman and they cannot die from suffocation. And the photos are in enough resolution to be seen that the ship is well maintained.

How can you tell if a ships internals (you know the important bits that provide power etc:rolleyes:) are well maintained.

Training, you know the stuff that condition sailors to deal with things like fires. And so what if he was not a meber of the crew, he was naval personnel which means he should have been up to speed anyway.

Just because it has an average paint scheme it does not mean that the vessel is well maintained and that its crew is properly maintained

Maybe you need to re-read my post. Person that died was not from ship’s crew, but i guess in other navies sailors are superhuman and they cannot die from suffocation. And the photos are in enough resolution to be seen that the ship is well maintained.