Russian school seige Beslan

It’s a tragedy. However it’s not really surprizing in this part of the world.
I however wonder how killing hundred’s of kids will serve Checnia’s cause ?????

Never mind helping their cause, they just bought themselves a new enemy
for hundreads of years. I don’t think the Ocetians will ever forgive the chechens or other muslim groups in the area. I wont be surprised to hear
of vendetas and revenge attacks against chechens and muslims in the
very near future..
P.S. Are the Russians going to attack the pensky gorge afinally?

Garry – my ‘knowledge’ is clearly now outdated (and was never specialist). Partly hrough reading your post, and mostly through seeing the latest updates on what happened / went wrong, I feel I have been more critical of the Russian forces than they deserved. As to ‘success’ in relation to the Moscow Theatre, and this school, that is perhaps down to the viewpoint of ‘less than a third dying is a success’. I still don’t see that amount of people (the innocents) dying as a success, and never will.

Gents,

I am actually on vacation in New York City, and don’t have enough time to read the whole. BUT, as much as I condemn the death of so myny, I can’n nor won’t accept racist statements. I won’t either accept people to condemn the whole muslim world because of what some crazed individuals did.

Racism is NOT tolerated here.

That said, and this goes to Comet’s comment in particular, I won’t moderate posts, as I havent read it all. I’ll let Flood do that, and zill ask you to remain correct. If not, I suggest this thread to be locked.

I hope I was clear.

I do not racism has any part in these events or other terror attacks,There are evil in every nation and every creed and colour,I agree its wrong to be anti Muslim and feel stongly on that.
It is a form of Brain washing that creats such evil deeds and the world is getting worse with such attacks,I do not know what the answers nobody does i guess.

Yeah :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: let’s kick some terrorist ass together!! I’m sure this will help. And how will this war be fought. Will we start bombing whole nations again and change their regimes? The world has stopped since 9/11 to fight the global war against terrorism. I still don’t believe there exists a thing like “global terrorism”. Chechnya is a different issue than Afghanistan, Sudan … Stop reading Huntington.

Yeah right Cechnya is a other case. 1999 Putin start a war against this country, a horrible war who not end yet.

😡 Huntingtion, he is stupid.

lets kick some terrorist ass TOGETHER!!!
We cannot let these “people” win, the civilised world must unite for freedom to reign over this form of madness!!!

Yeah :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: let’s kick some terrorist ass together!! I’m sure this will help. And how will this war be fought. Will we start bombing whole nations again and change their regimes? The world has stopped since 9/11 to fight the global war against terrorism. I still don’t believe there exists a thing like “global terrorism”. Chechnya is a different issue than Afghanistan, Sudan … Stop reading Huntington.

Gents,

I am actually on vacation in New York City, and don’t have enough time to read the whole. BUT, as much as I condemn the death of so myny, I can’n nor won’t accept racist statements. I won’t either accept people to condemn the whole muslim world because of what some crazed individuals did.

Racism is NOT tolerated here.

That said, and this goes to Comet’s comment in particular, I won’t moderate posts, as I havent read it all. I’ll let Flood do that, and zill ask you to remain correct. If not, I suggest this thread to be locked.

I hope I was clear.

Have we all forgotten 9/11? When the terrorists destroyed the twin towers and killed so many innocents a lot of people said “America brought this upon itself”, just like they are saying the same thing about Russia. I am so so sorry for those Russia soldiers who lost their lives and the innocent children and adults used as hostages in this barbaric act and died such horrible deaths. Now is the time for Russia and the US to forget their past and stand together, lets kick some terrorist ass TOGETHER!!!
We cannot let these “people” win, the civilised world must unite for freedom to reign over this form of madness!!!

As I have stated in another Forum “The definition of an Expert should read AN EX IS A HAS BEEN AND A SPURT IS A DRIP UNDER PRESSURE”

😡 hey, have any of you guys been watching sky news just now? i really cant believe what i am hearing and seeing!

the three so call experts that sky news called in this morning to discuss the tragic turn of events in russia started almost immediately to try to blame the russias for what happened! ‘oh they started it all’;’it was really them who brought it on themselves’…:mad:

only one of these ‘experts’ remembered to meantion that what happened was an absolutely inhuman (inanimal too) and utlerly indefensible atrocity. but even then i was getting the impression she was just rushing past a pre-plan speech so that she can get on doing what she really wanted – to also bash the russia government.

i find this completely revolting and unbelieveable. the merits (or rather lack of it) of their arguments aside, how could anyone with an anonce of decency try to whitewash and sideline this incredable tragedy only two days after it has happened and before even all the bodies have been counted?! did we hear of anyone in the mainstream media say, ‘ the US brought it on themselves’ two days after 9/11.:mad:

It’s a tragedy. However it’s not really surprizing in this part of the world.
I however wonder how killing hundred’s of kids will serve Checnia’s cause ?????

however, what i really really cant understand is how completely disorganised the russian assault turned out to be! the gun battle raged on for 3 HOURS and they were still not in control of the situation. in all honesty, i think the russians are lucky that the casaulties arent higher!

Yes, lets blame the Russians. The situation was evolving fluidly and there were mixed reports from everyone… at the time they thought only 200 odd people were inside later reports suggested over 1200. From what I have heard the vast majority of those children killed were killed very early on… would like to hear what you would have done differently. I guess they should have just relayed that the rebels were firing on people who were recovering bodies left outside and that several of the women terrs blew themselves up when they heard the gunfire which led the hostages to start running and the rest of the terrs to open fire to their superiors and then wait for orders and be told what the plan was. And of course reports suggest that some of the terrs changed inot civilian clothes and tried to mingle with the thousand odd people being held and leaving in large groups. Please post your plan… you have 10 minutes to formulate it. Come on people are dying…

i know all this developed unexpectedly, but that is no excuse as even i – someone who only recieved the most basic military training – knew that they had to draw up contingincy plans to go in in a hurry if it looked like things were getting out of hand.

OK, SO you try it yourself… you local school has been extensively mined and there are innocent men women and children around… at least 1000 of them and you have to go in and rescue them… what is your plan?

given that russia’s very best are involved, i cant believe that if they had bothered to properly plan an emergency assault, that it would turn out this badly,

Give me 20 men and women who are happy to die, in a room with 1200 people, let me mine the place and give me lots of automatic weapons and let me start shooting first before you can send anyone in and see how many you save.

so the only conclusion i can draw up is nobody thought of the need, or bothered to plan for an emergency! and i cant help but wonder how many died or were wounded unnecessarily because of this criminal neglegence.

Yes, it must be criminal negligence… they probably didn’t have any plan ready at all, they probably had just gotten through organising what sort of topping they’d like on their pizzas and they heard some shots.

Oh, and Usual marvellous Russian rescue job once again. Its always the innocents who suffer.

Yes, of course… in your expert opinion the Russians failed in their last hostage rescue operation. Was that the Moscow Siege that got the praise of the SAS and the Israeli special forces because they didn’t expect anyone to survive? The fact that those who were gassed were laid on their backs in the street while the special forces continued to search for terrs and bombs and just under 120 died through choking to death on their own vomit or swallowed their tongues means those dumb Russian soldiers know nothing.

Why do you need to attack anything? Must one attack lead to another?

And let them win?

There is a much deeper issue here and once we focus on whatever that is and start to try and work it out…We’ll see a change. There is corruption, greed, ignorance.

A small group of militant chechens want something. They were given it quite some time ago and they abused it by attacking their neighbours and foreigners within their borders. They did very little to govern themselves and spent most of their energies trying to spread Sharia law… in other words a Taliban ruled Afghanistan. If you think the war in Chechenia is between Russia and Chechens then you are misinformed. There is no way such a small force of Russians could have done what they did if they were fighting all chechens. The reality is that not all chechens are nuts, they are the ones I feel sorry for…

How come the Russian troops didn’t form a tighter cordon around the school to prevent the terrorists from escaping?

Ummm, yes, of course… you have women, men and children fleeing terrorists firing automatic weapons and RPGs at them and you are simultaneously shooting back to suppress the fire of the Terrs and analysing every face that runs past looking for chechen faces… how well trained do you think these guys are? We are talking the equivelent of the US National Guard… they are interior ministry troops. (Alpha teams don’t waste their time on cordon duty… they were probably away practising the assault somewhere).

The Russian record of hostage rescue is dire. In fact, of any rescue.

Actually it is rather good.. but what would you know… how many can you name? Does that number come close to the hundreds of rescues they perform every year?

The two Kev mentioned areones that sprang to mind. Lets not forget that sub either – those guys could have been rescued, but was help accepted?

Ahhh, more bull****. It took them over a week to get their equipment into position to get down to that sub. Forensic scientists seem to agree they only lasted 2 maybe three days at most. Whether they had asked for help as soon as it was needed or when they did those guys were dead anyway. You must also remember that during the Appollo 13 incident the Soviets also offered help, which was refused… if they had died I am sure you would have blamed the Americans for not even considering their help.

What happened to Spetsnaz? Do they still operate? Are ther not specialist siege / Co-in troops available for this kind of thing?

Which again shows your specialist knowledge of the situation. Why would spetsnaz be used? First of all it would violate Russian law. Second why would snipers and recon troops possibly be used instead of hostage rescue units like FSBs Alpha Teams?

I apologise for no-one. Russia has no right to slaughter people in Chechnya, and should bear that in mind.

Yes, very strange that the Russians are slaughtering so many people in Chechnia yet their population rises in number. Perhaps you have been misinformed by your media… Read this… it was posted on another forum by an American who was looking for Russians with experience in Afghanistan… he was looking for people with real experience at fighting afghans so he could pass on that intell to US troops fighting there. He is currently in the US military I believe.

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Playing With The News (Chechnya) Russia’s version is more accurate

Figuring out who’s winning the war in Chechnya, or who the good guys and bad guys are, has not been easy. Especially if you compare Western and Russian media, and particularly if you study the recent history of the area. The Western press stresses the horrors of war angle. That’s easy. Wars by definition are all about breaking things and killing people. The Russian take on the situation, however, is a lot more accurate. How can that be? Simple, let’s check the record. When Chechnya first declared independence from Russia in 1993, the Russians promptly invaded. The Russians quickly tired of getting a lot of their troops killed for what appeared to be little gain. In the wake of their withdrawal from Chechnya, Russia simultaneously declared Chechnya still a part of Russia (and paying pensions and government salaries there) and leaving the Chechens to their own devices. But the Chechens could not govern themselves. The central government in the province controlled little beyond the capital Grozny. At least six warlords held sway, and then quite loosely, over the rest of the province. Criminal activity ran rampant. Little of this was reported by the Western press, although it was sometimes acknowledged that Chechnya was “lawless.” The details are rather more grim and illuminating. Since 1997, some 1300 Russian civilians have been kidnapped for ransom. When the money did not appear to be forthcoming, the victims were murdered. Hundreds of these captives were rescued as Russian troops advanced into Chechnya. A few of these were reported in the Western press, but only on a slow news day. But kidnapping wasn’t the only racket. There was also auth theft, rustling, drug running and diverting oil from pipelines running through the province. This last scam was abetted by gangsters taking over local oil refineries and going into the fuel business. Add to this the usual gambling, extortion and prostitution rackets and you have a pretty grim place. For while a lot of the victims were fellow Chechens (who didn’t belong to a particular gangs clan), most were in neighboring countries.

But what really mobilized public support for an invasion of Chechnya was one gang that specialized in religious fanaticism (in addition to some more secular crimes, everyone found kidnapping and smuggling too lucrative to give up for religious reasons.) Not content with just turning Chechnya into crime central, the Besayev gang decided to turn all the southern Caucasus into an Islamic republic. Most Chechens practiced the more laid back Sufi form of Islam, but Besayev and his followers managed to convert a few thousand Chechens to the more hard nosed Wahhabi form of Islam. It aid in this, non-Chechen fundamentalists came in to join the jihad. A few hundred converts were made in neighboring Dagestan. In the Summer of 1999, Besayev and company decided it was time to stop preaching and start fighting. Several thousand holy warriors invaded Dagestan. The Chechen criminals were bad enough, but this was too much for the Dagestanis, and they fought back. The Western press made little of this local resistance, but it was widely reported in Russia. Also reported was why the 32,000 Dagestan civilians who fled the invasion, and the 1,500 locals were killed in the fighting, sometimes massacred by the holy warriors for resisting. Twice the Russians drove Besayev’s warriors back. But after the third invasion, the new prime minister of Russia decided to retake control of Chechenya.

At this point the reporting by the Western media got decidedly odd. By not making much of all the mayhem the Chechen gangsters were inflicting on the Caucasus, it was made to look like those mean and nasty Russian storm troopers were invading the peaceful province of Chechnya. The valiant Chechen freedom fighters fought back. For a moment it was forgotten that the people with the most guns in Chechnya were gangsters and that most Chechens wished things would just settle down. Many Chechens said as much, often to Russian TV cameras. Western reporters apparently thought this was all a set up. Western news editors tripped over their own cynicism when they ignored the public announcement (in February 2000) of the senior Islamic cleric of Chechnya, Mufti Akhmed Khadzhi Kadyrov, that Russian occupation of Chechnya was the only way the people were ever going to be free from all the criminal activity. No, the Western media had tagged this one as “innocent Chechens versus the Evil Empire” and there was no way any news director was going to switch to another perspective. Besides, the images of Russian artillery, warplanes and tanks pounding Grozny into dust was too good to pass up.

But then, those same images played to appreciative audiences in Russia. Since 1997, the Russian government had basically ignored the pleas of Chechnya’s neighbors for relief from the increasing criminal activity. Reassuring press releases and more border guards were all that was sent to paper over the situation. But the local resentments built up, not just in the Caucasus, but throughout Russia. What was going in Chechnya was symbolic of the lesser degree of lawlessness throughout the country. Russians were waiting for someone to do something. But no one wanted a lot of Russian troops to get killed in the process. The 1993 battles in Chechnya had been humiliating for the Russian military, and people as a whole. So borrowing a page from the American playbook, the Russians used firepower instead of Russian lives when they went after Chechnya in late 1999. This approach played well with the American people when it was U.S. troops casualties that were being kept down in World War II, and for the rest of the century. But for some odd reason, the Western media expected the Russians to get a lot of their soldiers killed in order to minimize damage to Chechen civilians and their real estate. The Russian public, and press, caught this double standard, but few in the West did.

War is hell, as a noted American general noted while burning down much of Georgia during our civil war, and there’s no way to put a pretty face on it. But it makes more salable news if you spin the situation just so. Just like they do in the movies. If reality doesn’t generate the right emotions, and sufficient box office, then you make a few alterations. But that doesn’t make it real, that just makes it entertainment. And the war in Chechnya isn’t entertainment, it’s a tragedy with past more meaningful than the one created for the evening news.

Regards,
Hist2004
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Alex.

It seems clear that the Russians responded to events and did not storm the school as a set piece military manouevre. My point is that there was no cordon, civilians and reporters right in the thick of it (in the case of those who acted as stretcher bearers and used their own vehicles as ambulances it is good that they did) and civilians running round joining in the shooting?

Yes, the Russians were forced into this and in all likelihood it would have ended badly anyway. I have no doubt that the Russian forces did their best, it must have been devastating for the Russian soldiers to see so many being killed and unable to stop the carage soon enough. I just feel they might have been better prepared from what past experience has shown them.

Regards,

kev35

No chance to log on yesterday, sorry.

I’ll reiterate – I do not have any feelings of regard for the terrorists. For any terrorists. I do not condone or even care for them. I want to see them gone. That is not my point. My point is that you cannot be a hypocrite. How can people blame Islam for this? I’m sorry, I don’t see the link. Perhaps because there is none. Chechnya is a long way away. Say Chechnya was France, it is 1942, and the French Resistance have just done the same. (The Maquis, by nature of the rules of war, were terrorists by the way). What will you do? Blame every Frenchman?

I apologise for no-one. Russia has no right to slaughter people in Chechnya, and should bear that in mind. The fact that the terrorists hit children is absolutely sickening. Whoever said Terrorism and state-spnsored terrorism above hitt the nail on the head perfectly – that’s exactly what I was meaning.

As for sarcasm – well, yes and no. It’s a sarcastically put honest comment. The Russian record of hostage rescue is dire. In fact, of any rescue. The two Kev mentioned areones that sprang to mind. Lets not forget that sub either – those guys could have been rescued, but was help accepted? What happened to Spetsnaz? Do they still operate? Are ther not specialist siege / Co-in troops available for this kind of thing? Perhaps an airstrike would have killed less hostages. I’m sorry, those casualty figures could, and should, have been a lot, lot lower.

I don’t think so Alex. It’s called sarcasm.
kev35

Sarcasm it’s not. To claim that the Russians where not prepared and
seem to be losing their war on terror is good critizism which i believe Putin
admitts too. To claim the innocent sufffered bacause of the Russians
is really upseting and i’m no Russian. The blame for what happened is on
the sub humans that would force infants to drink their own urine and then shoot them in the back. Sadly in the days to come when this drama is no
longer on TV we will forget, the world will still be devided on how to deal with
isalmic terrorism and it will happen sooner then later to another country.

Fact is a whole future generation in such a small village is really gone. I think this is hard to imagine which effect it would have upon your own local community. Just heard about the news today -CNN has little impact on my life- I was shocked. Shocked, not because the world was under attack, not because of global terrorism but simply because a bunch of 20-year olds were able to kill such small children. It’s easy to blame all ‘muslims’ for this kind of act, like Comet and Co are now doing, calling it, in capital letters ‘THE TRUTH’. Personally Flood, I find this a pity – with all due respect – you deleted the previous posts because it exactly illustrates how some help to create the wrong image of one group of people being responsible for this kind of acts. These are, like Kevin said, individuals, psycho’s! Mass-hysteria is the dumbest thing one can imagine, especially because most people who are now yelling never had personal problems themselves. 😡

I did not delete anything in that post except what looked – to me – to be an attempt to ignite an IndoPak flame war in Discussion; maybe a total of 15-20 words, including the name of an English town which has suffered some rioting between different ethnic groups. The fact that I found most of that post somewhat distasteful is beside the point – it was the attempt to drag one country and/or their religion into an argument by a member (or whatever) of/from another country and/or their religion about an ethnic minority flare-up in the north of England: none of which had a direct connection to the subject bar that maybe some foreign nationals might have taken part (but unless the member posting it has some hard but proven evidence he might do well to keep his suspicions to himself least he is suspected to actually be involved himself…).
If anyone believes that they have been excessively moderated then please contact the webmaster; I do not believe that this particular post was over moderated – possibly under, in fact, but I cannot see a path through it without just getting rid of it…

Flood

Yeah. And i heard there was a burglar living in Canterbury as well. Nuke that place too :rolleyes:

Shocking incident indeed 😡 . the russians did what they could, but the terrorists arn’t amateurs either. The russians did what they needed to do. this threadh does not need to change in a muslim/anti muslim threadh, let us just mourn the death of so many innocent people. I cannot understand that these terrorist actually think they can make a point which the common man will believe by doing such actions.

Fact is a whole future generation in such a small village is really gone. I think this is hard to imagine which effect it would have upon your own local community. Just heard about the news today -CNN has little impact on my life- I was shocked. Shocked, not because the world was under attack, not because of global terrorism but simply because a bunch of 20-year olds were able to kill such small children. It’s easy to blame all ‘muslims’ for this kind of act, like Comet and Co are now doing, calling it, in capital letters ‘THE TRUTH’. Personally Flood, I find this a pity – with all due respect – you deleted the previous posts because it exactly illustrates how some help to create the wrong image of one group of people being responsible for this kind of acts. These are, like Kevin said, individuals, psycho’s! Mass-hysteria is the dumbest thing one can imagine, especially because most people who are now yelling never had personal problems themselves. 😡

With all respect, but there were 1200 people crammed in a gymnasium looking about the size of a basketball field, with explosives rigged everywhere. The terrorists obviously made sure that school building became a deathtrap, willing to sacrifice themselves just as easily as the hostages.

There is a lot that can be said about Russian clumsiness in hostage situations (and the aftermath of the Nord-Ost theatre crisis was absolutely terrible), but i really wonder if anyone can seriously think this situation could have been dealt with without the most sad loss of innocent lives? I would seriously doubt it in case of a planned assault/rescue attempt. In an ‘accidental’ shootout like what happened on friday, i’m afraid to say it seems more a matter of luck than anything else to me.

Having spent quite some time in small Russian towns not unlike Beslan, i have tried to think about the impact a tragedy like this will have on such a community. If i could, i would probably feel even more miserable about it than i do now. Horrible.

To witness such evil, even at a distance, is so profoundly sickening and disorientating that the we feel utter revulsion. The way that the horror unfolded over three days made the events more immediate to our own lives, and the reality that we could go to bed on Thursday night, knowing that the hostages were still captive, knowing that it would probably end soon, and that it was very likely that many people who were still alive would soon not be. So it proved, and the BBC now confirms 330 deaths.

It is probably trite to look for any good in such an evil act, but perhaps the best we can hope is that the revulsion at this event will be so widespread that, like the IRA attack at Eniskillen, it will be seen as the ultimate outrage, and the start of a meaningful process to find a solution. A vain hope maybe, and only time will tell.

It is a symptom of 24 hr, instant global news that these events now have such an immediacy and crowd in on us as never before. The nature of ‘News’ is that is more likely to be alarming and distressing, and the ‘good’ stories far less prominent. The relentless diet of bombings, genocide, religous conflict can engender a jaded, cynical and suspicious outlook on life, but it is surely vital to hang onto the reality of the compassion, co-operation and stabilty that what we more usually see and experience within our own lives.

Though it may not feel like it, we in the UK, Europe, the West, are lucky enough to live more stable, secure lives than probably any previous era. This reality takes nothing for granted about the future, and is in no way indifferent to the plight of millions of people around the world. Let us hope that there is never a time when these events no longer shock us.