Russian warships drive away Dutch submarine tailing fleet in Mediterranean

Taking into account the route of the Russian fleet, the (very) slow speed that it went by and the fact that, usually, the fleets of NATO of SSK´s and SSN´s train against their fellow surface fleets, this was a unique oportunity to actually train “against” a possible OPFOR fleet i would imagine that the biggest problem of the “western” submariners was not bumping into each other! I am willing to bet that the kuz and its fleet were shadowed by the RN, by the Dutch, by the Spanish, by the Portuguese, the French, the Italians and the US Navy submarines.

Some times if they are adamant in that case you simply drop more if these underwater grenades close to target or even high power non explosive depth charges and go for active pinging of targets. In worst case they might be forced to surface but thats about it.

Once you are caught you know your game is up , you loose discretion and that is what sub warfare is all about. It pretty routine and its a cat mouse game that goes on. Just that media makes it sound more dramatic.

I understand how a noisemaker lets the other guy know he’s been detected. But, ultimately, it is the boat’s captain that decides whether or not to leave, yes? I mean, in peace time in international waters at a safe distance from a target ship. There is no way to physically force the submarine to leave the area, right? Besides his Walrus ‘incident’ (which doesn’t make clear if the Russians actually detected the sub on their own with their sensors, or that the sub made its presence known, intentionally or unintentionally by surfacing or being unusually loud: this is a sub that ran circles around USN ships – CVN, DDG, SSN in NATO excersizes in the 1990), there is a similar hubhub about an Indian navy 209 detected by Pakistan navy.

I mean, there is a difference between a fire alarm that informs you that you should leave the building, and a fire alarm that is actually so loud and sharp to your ears that you cannot physically remain in the building without your ears starting to bleed so to speak 😉

What if they don’t leave but e.g. just go quiet and sit there? I mean, it’s peacetime and international waters and 20km from the Kuz…

Some times if they are adamant in that case you simply drop more if these underwater grenades close to target or even high power non explosive depth charges and go for active pinging of targets. In worst case they might be forced to surface but thats about it.

Once you are caught you know your game is up , you loose discretion and that is what sub warfare is all about. It pretty routine and its a cat mouse game that goes on. Just that media makes it sound more dramatic.

They drop underwater sound grenade or something similar near the detected submarine and tell them to leave the place , its a nice way of saying you have been found please move away from here , the hostile submarine leaves the location …happened many times before and happens quite a few times during naval exercise on both sides.

What if they don’t leave but e.g. just go quiet and sit there? I mean, it’s peacetime and international waters and 20km from the Kuz…

“active manoeuvres expelled the submarine from the Russian Federation’s boundary waters”

Please explain how one ‘expells’ a submerged SSN or SSK without using force. (tracking is one thing, expelling another)
Isn’t it just that the submarine captain slipped away?

They drop underwater sound grenade or something similar near the detected submarine and tell them to leave the place , its a nice way of saying you have been found please move away from here , the hostile submarine leaves the location …happened many times before and happens quite a few times during naval exercise on both sides.

Not the first time though RuN detected and drove Virginia submarine along its barrent coast

http://in.reuters.com/article/ukraine-crisis-russia-submarine-idINL6N0QF0J420140809

“active manoeuvres expelled the submarine from the Russian Federation’s boundary waters”

Please explain how one ‘expells’ a submerged SSN or SSK without using force. (tracking is one thing, expelling another)
Isn’t it just that the submarine captain slipped away?

Seems unlikely that a conventional sub could have trailed a battlegroup for thousands of km’s.

And why is that unlikely?

Considering:

Russia’s aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov, which is sailing to the coasts of Syria, will be almost useless in the Mediterranean Sea and definitely will not be able to influence the situation with a blockade or a possible attack of Aleppo. This was the opinion expressed by an analyst from Novaya Gazeta, Pavel Felgenhauer.

“It took almost a month for the crossing, and the average speed was less than nine knots.

http://uawire.org/news/analyst-russian-aircraft-carrier-admiral-kuznetsov-is-almost-useless-in-the-mediterranean-sea

NIKOLAY CHIKER (#Kuznetsov task group) at 61.86411°/3.523707° 100km NW of Bergen @ 6.1kn / 193° (2016-10-18 08:48 UTC)

https://mobile.twitter.com/Valery_Gerasimo/status/788329286306566144

Tugboat “Nikolay Chiker”, belonging to the Russian Admiral Kuznetsov naval group, is currently moving through Strait of Sicily – Italy [31 October 2016: 11.1kn]

http://mideast.liveuamap.com/en/2016/31-october-tugboat-nikolay-chiker-belonging-to-the-russian

While Chiker’s top speed is 18 kt and her standard Range is 11000 n miles (20372.0 km) (12658.6 miles) at 16 kt (29.6 km/h) (18.4 mph)
https://campingcdn.blogspot.nl/2014/05/nikolay-chiker-harbinger-of-underwater.html
Chiker [Kuznetsov’s stand-by ocean tug] typically does not move at more than 12.5 kn.
http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:4404011/mmsi:273531629/imo:8613334/vessel:NIKOLAY_CHIKER

The Walrus class ssk can do 13 kn on the surface and 20kn submerged. Range while snorting is 10,000 Miles at 9 kts.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/walrus-specs.htm

Dutch navy’s Walrus class submarines are amongst the few ocean going diesel electric submarines that are left with NATO navies. Diesel electric submarines are inherently quieter than nuclear submarines, and are regularly used by the Great Powers for spying purposes. Walrus class submarines are said to be especially quiet and this combined with the fact that they are amongst the few ocean going diesel electric submarines NATO still has means that they are regularly used by NATO for spying missions.

http://theduran.com/nato-just-try-sabotage-admiral-kuznetsov-aircraft-carrier/

Its an odd methodology to stay quiet on their ASW tracks all through transit to, sensibly, deny information on capabilities and then go and make this kind of report that then tips their hand?. If you were going to tip the hand anyway why not prosecute the on-transit tracks hard and prove the point well before approaching station.

The tip was to just tell them we know you are there so as to make it to news on the media but not to revel critical information on the entire ASW track. Thats not unusual seen many US/NATO press on Russian sub getting tracked to make it to media but not reveling the entire info

It is also possible that Kuz CBG was tracking the Dutch sub for long and the information they put up of 20km is just convenient one so as to not revel the exact capability of ASW , Who is to say that Kuz CBG was not aware of many NATO subs up there and its own hidden somewhere

Again entirely possible…..its also entirely possible it wasn’t the Walrus that they detected and it was someone elses boat. Its an odd methodology to stay quiet on their ASW tracks all through transit to, sensibly, deny information on capabilities and then go and make this kind of report that then tips their hand?. If you were going to tip the hand anyway why not prosecute the on-transit tracks hard and prove the point well before approaching station.

It is also possible that Kuz CBG was tracking the Dutch sub for long and the information they put up of 20km is just convenient one so as to not revel the exact capability of ASW , Who is to say that Kuz CBG was not aware of many NATO subs up there and its own hidden somewhere

I think it’s more likely that the sub simply went where everyone knew the carrier group would be going. Bit laborious to track a surface group with a conventional sub – have to snorkel almost all the time.
If the sub was doing SIGINT (seems likely) then it would have been very close to surface and might have been simply seen from an aircraft. That’s what killed many Italian and British subs in WW2. Also, Kuznetsov group has two Udaloys, Velikiy and reportedly no less than three subs of its own, so there’s no shortage of ASW assets and hiding might be harder than usually.

Absolutely. The actual mechanics of the trail dont involve sitting 20 miles behind the group trying to maintain 15knts indefinitely. They’d have got ahead jumped forward, waited, jumped forward a bit farther, snorted, let the group catch up a bit, jumped forward….rinse and repeat.

SIGINT from 20kms away to seaward of the target group and the wrong side of where the air operations will be sounds a bit unlikely?.

Not the first hull I would have picked for the job to be fair Yama, but, they have the reach for it. The carrier group did anchor up after getting round the Iberian peninsula for a while also. Wouldn’t have been difficult to get ahead of the group and let it catch up.

The detect at 20k yards is an interesting snippet as well. That’s a very long way in not very deep water where they are…bit far for a ship set. Sounds like someone has tried to breach a buoy line and gotten caught red handed!. As I said the Dutch seem to be playing some games….wonder why the Russians showed their hand like this?.

Usual practise here, if you have a track, is to act like you don’t!. Better that the opposition doesn’t know what you can really do if they ever want to try it for real.

I think it’s more likely that the sub simply went where everyone knew the carrier group would be going. Bit laborous to track a surface group with a conventional sub – have to snorkel almost all the time.
If the sub was doing SIGINT (seems likely) then it would have been very close to surface and might have been simply seen from an aircraft. That’s what killed many Italian and British subs in WW2. Also, Kuznetsov group has two Udaloys, Velikiy and reportedly no less than three subs of its own, so there’s no shortage of ASW assets and hiding might be harder than usually.

Not the first hull I would have picked for the job to be fair Yama, but, they have the reach for it. The carrier group did anchor up after getting round the Iberian peninsula for a while also. Wouldn’t have been difficult to get ahead of the group and let it catch up.

The detect at 20k yards is an interesting snippet as well. That’s a very long way in not very deep water where they are…bit far for a ship set. Sounds like someone has tried to breach a buoy line and gotten caught red handed!. As I said the Dutch seem to be playing some games….wonder why the Russians showed their hand like this?.

Usual practise here, if you have a track, is to act like you don’t!. Better that the opposition doesn’t know what you can really do if they ever want to try it for real.

It is possible that the Dutch pulled back from the trail to run up the Diesels to charge the batteries and as you said tripped a passive sonar buoy line, or the Submarine could have popped up a comms mast to send some intel home and the Russians picked up the transmission allowing them to triangulate and send out ASW helicopter. Either way pretty bad luck considering how shallow and noisy with ships the Med is!

Then again the dutch might have dropped the trail to come home, surfaced and an ASW helicopter sweep spotted it! Considering the Russians identified the type that is not an entirely unreasonable speculation. Considering like most NATO navies the Dutch don’t comment on their submarine operations the actual truth will probably never come out.

What you can guarantee is the Russian press and its “RUSSIA STRONK! NATO WEAK!” narrative when this kind of thing happens. Frankly they shouldn’t be crowing too much about it, 20km is uncomfortably close for a modern submarine to a Carrier. That is comfortably within the range of Sub Harpoon and the MK48 torpedo. The Russian carrier group are probably pumping out a significant amount of electrons into the air, so if that sub was really fighty they could shove up their ESM/ELINT mast and calculate a shot.

Which is the irony of all this, whilst the Western and Russian press have been making much about this Russian trip to the Med NATO has had the opportunity to hoover all sorts of ELINT and COMINT which is exactly what those Submarines have been tasked to find out.

Seems unlikely that a conventional sub could have trailed a battlegroup for thousands of km’s.

Not the first hull I would have picked for the job to be fair Yama, but, they have the reach for it. The carrier group did anchor up after getting round the Iberian peninsula for a while also. Wouldn’t have been difficult to get ahead of the group and let it catch up.

The detect at 20k yards is an interesting snippet as well. That’s a very long way in not very deep water where they are…bit far for a ship set. Sounds like someone has tried to breach a buoy line and gotten caught red handed!. As I said the Dutch seem to be playing some games….wonder why the Russians showed their hand like this?.

Usual practise here, if you have a track, is to act like you don’t!. Better that the opposition doesn’t know what you can really do if they ever want to try it for real.

Not the first time though RuN detected and drove Virginia submarine along its barrent coast

http://in.reuters.com/article/ukraine-crisis-russia-submarine-idINL6N0QF0J420140809

A foreign submarine, presumed to be a U.S. Navy Virginia-class vessel, was detected by Northern Fleet forces on duty in the Barents Sea on Aug. 7, the spokesman said.

A U.S. Defense official, speaking on condition of anonymity, could not confirm the incident and had no comment on the Russian claim.

“An anti-submarine attack group and an Ilyushin Il-38 anti-submarine aircraft were sent to the said area to search and track the sub,” the Russian navy spokesman was quoted by Interfax news agency as saying.

“The Northern Fleet anti-submarine forces’ active manoeuvres expelled the submarine from the Russian Federation’s boundary waters.”

What tracking ? they were spotted, suggesting they were on the surface, the article and other reports I have read all suggest the subs were shadowing the Russians, this means they let themselves be known and were on the surface

“A Nato official said the alliance’s navies have been monitoring the Russian fleet in recent weeks in a “measured and responsible way, as is customary”. He refused to elaborate on how Nato was doing that”

If they want to follow them and not be seen it would be pretty easy

http://tass.com/defense/911282

“Throughout its voyage, a Northern Fleet detachment regularly detected NATO’s submarines along the route. Actions by USS Virginia, which was trying to spy on the Russian vessels, were recorded in early November,” Konashenkov said.

“It is noteworthy that these large-displacement submarines are not meant for conducting surveillance,” he noted.

So the virginias were on surface trying to conduct surveillance on CBG ….That must be first for submarines

Indeed. The media suggestion was that the Walrus picked up the trail just south of the English Channel. Sounds like the Dutch have been playing games a little.

Seems unlikely that a conventional sub could have trailed a battlegroup for thousands of km’s.

Indeed. The media suggestion was that the Walrus picked up the trail just south of the English Channel. Sounds like the Dutch have been playing games a little.

What tracking ? they were spotted, suggesting they were on the surface, the article and other reports I have read all suggest the subs were shadowing the Russians, this means they let themselves be known and were on the surface

“A Nato official said the alliance’s navies have been monitoring the Russian fleet in recent weeks in a “measured and responsible way, as is customary”. He refused to elaborate on how Nato was doing that”

If they want to follow them and not be seen it would be pretty easy

The part where they could track the Virginia SSN and very capable SSK from NATO is interesting

Totally Agreed!