Ryanair loses disability ruling

Well it’s the often quoted “pay peanuts, get monkey’s” scenario again isn’t it. For once I feel slightly defensive of Michael Ryan. Shouldn’t the airport be providing wheelchairs within it’s terminal areas and not the individual airlines ?

I could understand it from an apron to plane point of view but surely within the domain of the terminal building, that kind of issue is for BAA or whatever operator to resolve ?

And yes Kevin, this should have been sorted out behind closed doors without making the unfortunate Mr Ross a scapegoat in the matter. Good on him for taking umbrage.

I still stick to the views that I hold on LoCos and these are views that I’ve held over many years. I was not “matter of factly” predicting a return to the so called “bad old days” in my post, I suspect (not predict) that post LoCo fares will return to a sensible
and sustainable level. That has to be good for the aviation industry as a whole doesn’t it? As I’ve said in earlier posts-Enjoy trips to Dublin or wherever for £1.50 plus this plus that while you can, that cheap seat may well have cost one of our aviation colleagues their job! I just can’t see it lasting for ever.

Whatcha like man?!? 😀

Duesseldwarf.

Why would there be hard feelings? It is the diversity of opinion and the tolerance of alternative views which make this such a good forum.

The fact that you are wrong and I am right is your loss. 😉 🙂 😀

Please not that the last sentence was written with tongue firmly in cheek.

On a serious note I do see what Duesseldwarf means about wheelchairs being the airport’s responsibility, but that is an argument Ryanair should have with Stansted, not Mr Ross.

Regards,

kev35

Kev

Phew!! I feel better if there’s no hard feelings! People’s opinions make this forum interesting sometimes! I’d be bored if everyone agreed with everyone else.

😎

“For the record, I’m not here just to argue with anyone. I’d rather enjoy the forum and be able express my opinions freely. Otherwise, I’d have been a politician!”

You? A politician? Never happen, you stick to your views too well and don’t change your mind to suit the voters. 😉

Regards,

kev35

Ken – my ‘petrol and parking’ comment was obviously ridiculous – that was the very point I was making.

For the record, I’m not here just to argue with anyone. I’d rather enjoy the forum and be able express my opinions freely. Otherwise, I’d have been a politician!

😀

and every other airline factors the third party costs into their ticket prices, it is only Ryanair that is making a song and dance about it.

your comment about free petrol and parking is ridiculous.

my opinion

Yes, Ken, I did indeed point out that it was an extract and not my own words.

Also, using your examples, it would seem that the airport (the company actually providing the wheelchair service to Mr Ross – it was NOT Ryanair providing the service – it’s just that the airport invoice Ryanair and not the passenger) WOULD in fact be the other side of the passenger’s wheelchair service contract. Would this not be the case if it WAS the airport and NOT the airline providing the service, as was the case here?

The contract attached to an airline ticket (or booking) would be for providing air transportation only and not for any third party servies, surely?? After a passenger checks in, it is not the airline’s responsibilty to get them to the aircraft at the gate. The onus lies solely on the passenger there. No other third party service is included with any airline ticket. If your ‘opinion’ is correct I look forward to my free petrol and parking next time I fly.

Well at least this has provoked a considered discussion!
I would make these comments regarding using full service airlines or FR; I shall be flying to MNL at the end of next month by Singapore Airlines ((for the second time with this airline), my choice is made because my experience with a number of airlines on this route have resulted in the decision to use SIA even if I have to pay more for the flight.
That flight is to visit family and considered “necessary”. If,
however,I think about popping down to Italy for a few days, just for the fun of it, the trip only be taken if I can afford it (which means either flying FR or I don’t make the trip), so its not a case of “support your full service airlines”, I simply can’t afford to, and they don’t fly to the destinations I want in Italy anyway.
Just one more thing – lots of comment about Ryanair making big profits – how are BAA doing?

I see you are quoting from a working paper, not a passed law.

I am extrapolating my view from other implementations of law.

If I buy an object, my contract is with the person who sold me the object, not with the manufacturer.

If I buy a bus ticket, the contract is with the bus company, not the raod authorities

If i buy a rail ticket, it is with the company who run the trains, not the company who own the rails.

why should airline be any different?

Not how the European Commission Transport Directorate sees it. Read below:

EXTRACT FROM THE EUROPEAN COMMISSION TRANSPORT DIRECTORATE STAFF WORKING PAPER

RIGHTS OF PERSONS WITH REDUCED MOBILITY WHEN
TRAVELLING BY AIR

17. The managing body of an airport has wide responsibilities throughout the airport and so looks be well placed to provide a comprehensive and seamless service. Moreover, it would be unreasonable to expect one airline to provide assistance throughout an airport, for its own passengers and for those transferred between carriers, in the terminals that it uses and in others. There is a strong case for making the airport manager responsible for organising and financing the assistance that people with reduced mobility need to use air transport. (It could supply the assistance itself or place contracts with suppliers.)

However, this is an extract and not my own words. Whether this is correct or not, I still agree with it insofar that the airport SHOULD be responsible.

Just out of interest, and not meaning it to sound bitchy in any way, where did your information come from? It would be interesting to find out what the actual law is for sure. It wouldn’t alter my opinion on the matter all the same.

Dusseldwarf

under consumer law, when you buy a ticket your contract is with the airline, NOT the airport. Hence it is the airline who is responsible for providing wheelchair support, which the airline contracts from the airport, and the airline is sued for the discrimination.

K

Originally posted by Interflug62M
People, if like me you’ve no time for Ryanair then the best way to show them that is just don’t fly with ’em. I never have and never will. Their “business model”, founded on a house of cards, relies on a constantly high load factor. Take it away from them! There is always another way to get there. Sooner or later all air travellers will have to resume paying a realistic, not excessive, rate to fly and that WILL come. Ryanair splitting hairs over wether or not it should do its duty by less abled passengers in order to maintain its artificially low cost mantle, quite honestly stinks!

Support your full service carriers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The reason Ryanair are so busy? They are affordable to most. They hide nothing in their terms and conditions, so people should be aware of what is and what is not included. Do you really believe that IF Ryanair and the likes disappear, that all the passengers will be flocking to the higher cost airlines? Not bloody likely! And, if BA, for example, put their fares up after Ryanair and co are not around, people would not simply accept that and pay ridiculously fares again and I would expect a huge revolt.

The travelling public are not silly – if it could be done when Ryanair were around, it could be done when Ryanair are not around – but I sincerely doubt any of this will happen on the scale that you so matter-of-factly predict.

You ask the majority of Ryanair’s customers why they are flying with Ryanair and they will tell you it is because they can afford to. Money will always, always be the deciding factor in the vast majority of cases among air travellers – myself included! (and I work for a full service airline!):)

Hey Kev.

I hear ya, I really do but we are going to have to agree to disagree slightly on this.

Ryanair will be the first to boast about their profits and admit that thay can easily afford to pay the £18 charge each time a wheelchair user it assisted through STN by STN staff using STN property, but I think the point they are making is that they do not believe that they, the airline, should have to pay in these circumstances. It does read on my post , a few posts back, that Ryanair actually do absorb costs related to wheelchair users but not when the wheelchair user ‘borrows’ or ‘rents’ a wheelchair from the airport company. Do you not think that the airport is responsible for the passenger in some way shape or form, whilst they are on their premises with procedures such as security checks etc? I believe that BAA should be looking after the passengers between the airline’s check in desk and the gate – after all everything inbetween these two places does belong to the airport company and not the airline. The airline’s duty to the passenger will begin again onboard when the onus is upon the airline’s own staff to take care of their customers. Passengers are customers of the airport too, in my opinion.

This is my opinion only and I do not use it to upset people deliberately. I respect your opinions too, and to a certain degree, I do agree with you.

People, if like me you’ve no time for Ryanair then the best way to show them that is just don’t fly with ’em. I never have and never will. Their “business model”, founded on a house of cards, relies on a constantly high load factor. Take it away from them! There is always another way to get there. Sooner or later all air travellers will have to resume paying a realistic, not excessive, rate to fly and that WILL come. Ryanair splitting hairs over wether or not it should do its duty by less abled passengers in order to maintain its artificially low cost mantle, quite honestly stinks!

Support your full service carriers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dusseldwarf.

“I also think it is irrelevant if Ryanair make small or huge profits. Does this mean that Mr. Ross would have not actioned the court case if Ryanair made a loss? No, I think that is missing the point by miles.”

My point is that Ryanair claim “It should clearly be the responsibility of the very profitable airport terminal operators to provide disabled passenger assistance through their buildings on a free of cost basis.” At £165 million pounds a year profit Ryanair are clearly not financially challenged.

“As far as Ryanair charging £0.50 per passenger per sector as a wheelchair levy – it is all about them making their point that they don’t see why they should have to pay an airport’s cost to wheelchair passengers and are now passing it on to every STN and LGW passenger just like other airlines (albeit at a much inflated price) – but unless they do this, their point would not be noticed. I still agree with Ryanair that they should not be responsible for this, neither should the passenger BUT Stansted Airport definately should be. If I was Ryanair, a business, I would be fed up if I was paying for another business’ service to be provided to a third party.”

Ryanair will certainly be hoping that the legal procedure for the appeal is a lengthy one if they are to make another £10 million pounds per year out of this 50p levy. I don’t see the problem, this should be between Ryanair and BAA. Again, if Ryanair accepted Mr Ross as a passenger then surely they have a duty of care to him at the very least from the time he checks in. Whether he came is his own wheelchair or not. That is wholly irrelevant. Ryanair surely don’t carry that many passengers who are in Mr Ross’s situation that they can quibble and argue over £18 when they declare an annual profit of £165 million?

Regards,

kev35

Kev

Please believe me when I say that I’m not discriminative again anyone with any disability. I agree with the argument that it is not Mr. Ross’ fault that he is disabled but I disagree that it is Ryanair’s responsibilty to have to pay the airport’s charges levied for wheelchair users. I think the airport should be in trouble for this – not the airline.

I also think it is irrelevant if Ryanair make small or huge profits. Does this mean that Mr. Ross would have not actioned the court case if Ryanair made a loss? No, I think that is missing the point by miles.

As far as Ryanair charging £0.50 per passenger per sector as a wheelchair levy – it is all about them making their point that they don’t see why they should have to pay an airport’s cost to wheelchair passengers and are now passing it on to every STN and LGW passenger just like other airlines (albeit at a much inflated price) – but unless they do this, their point would not be noticed. I still agree with Ryanair that they should not be responsible for this, neither should the passenger BUT Stansted Airport definately should be. If I was Ryanair, a business, I would be fed up if I was paying for another business’ service to be provided to a third party.

View from a person with mobility problems.

I use crutches or a wheelchair to get around. There are numerous occasions when I have to use both. Mr. Ross did not have his own wheelchair at that time so he arrived on crutches. How far is the walk from check-in to the departure gate? Quite probably outside Mr. Ross’ range for being able to walk there. So if he has checked in then it is the responsibility of the airline to get him on and off the aircraft. They are providing a service. Go into your local Asda/Tesco/Sainsbury and see if they charge you for the use of a wheelchair. It all comes down to a lack of understanding and an absence of customer service. Believe me, neither Mr Ross or anyone else wants to be in a wheelchair.

“In this case, Mr Ross, who was not travelling in a wheelchair, and who was enjoying a £10 fare from London to the South of France, and whom the Judge accepted “would not fly to Perpignan four times a year if the Ryanair air fares were not so cheap” still expects Ryanair to pay £18 (£36 return) – or almost twice his air fare – for wheelchair assistance to a passenger who is not in a wheelchair – to get through the British Airports Authority’s complicated terminal building at Stansted Airport.”

The fact that Ryanair offer such cheap fares is irrelevant. I still see no justification for discriminating against someone with mobility problems. When a ticket is brought from Ryanair do they point out how difficult it is to get through the “complicated terminal building at Stansted Airport”? Or that a charge of £18 pounds will be levied?

“There is a strong case for making the Airport manager responsible for organising and financing the assistance that people with reduced mobility need to use air transport”. Ryanair fully supports and endorses this view. “

They may have a point, but that is for them to argue with the airport operator, not Mr Ross.

“We believe this decision of the County Court is defective. It should clearly be the responsibility of the very profitable airport terminal operators to provide disabled passenger assistance through their buildings on a free of cost basis. These costs should not be imposed on the airlines, particularly when – as in the case of Mr Ross and Ryanair – the fare paid by Mr Ross to fly to the South of France was just half the cost of providing wheelchair assistance to get him through the terminal building in Stansted.”

Profitable airport operators? Does Ryanair not think a profit of some £165 million pounds last year makes them profitable? What’s next from them? Charging the blind for a guide? The deaf and hard of hearing becuse their staff have to speak louder? The fact that Mr Ross did not arrive in a wheelchair does not mean that he did not need that facility. What Ryanair are doing is splitting hairs.

One final point about money. Ryanair have levied an immediate charge of 50 pence per passenger. According to Business Times, in the twelve months to 30th Nov, 2003, Ryanair carried 20.7 million passengers. Charge them all an extra 50p and you bring in another £10,350,000 in revenue. How many wheelchairs can you buy for that? And that is the bottom line, greed.

Ryanair deserve to go down for this, or perhaps their CEO could show us how the airline spends ten million pounds on wheelchair passengers each year?

Regards,

kev35

All critics, have a read. Extracted from Ryanair’s website:

Ryanair, Europe’s largest low fare airline today (30th Jan 04) instructed its lawyers to proceed immediately to lodge an appeal to the Court of Appeal, of what it considers to be the defective judgement handed down in the Central London County Court in a case taken by Mr Robert Ross. In this case, Mr Ross, who was not travelling in a wheelchair, and who was enjoying a £10 fare from London to the South of France, and whom the Judge accepted “would not fly to Perpignan four times a year if the Ryanair air fares were not so cheap” still expects Ryanair to pay £18 (£36 return) – or almost twice his air fare – for wheelchair assistance to a passenger who is not in a wheelchair – to get through the British Airports Authority’s complicated terminal building at Stansted Airport.

In this case it is the BAA Stansted (who refuse to provide free of charge assistance to disabled people through their terminal building) that is out of step, not Ryanair. Ryanair operates to 86 airports all over Europe, and at over 80 of these airports the airport operator provides the disabled assistance through its terminal buildings on a free of charge basis. Why doesn’t Stansted or the BAA?

This County Court decision is also out of step with the current draft disability paper being prepared by the European Union. This paper states “There is a strong case for making the Airport manager responsible for organising and financing the assistance that people with reduced mobility need to use air transport”. Ryanair fully supports and endorses this view.

Commenting on this defective judgement today, a spokesman for Ryanair said

“We wish to reiterate that Ryanair has never charged any wheelchair passenger for assistance at any airport including Stansted. In the case of wheelchair passengers Ryanair absorbs the cost of this assistance at Stansted and the tiny minority of other airports around Europe where this service is not provided free of charge by the Airport Operator”.

“Mr Ross was not travelling in a wheelchair in this case, and was therefore directed to the third party service provider in Stansted, because the BAA Stansted do not provide this service free of charge – unlike the 80 other airports that Ryanair use in Europe.

“We believe this decision of the County Court is defective. It should clearly be the responsibility of the very profitable airport terminal operators to provide disabled passenger assistance through their buildings on a free of cost basis. These costs should not be imposed on the airlines, particularly when – as in the case of Mr Ross and Ryanair – the fare paid by Mr Ross to fly to the South of France was just half the cost of providing wheelchair assistance to get him through the terminal building in Stansted.

“We have instructed our lawyers to immediately appeal this decision, and we believe the Court of Appeal will find in favour of current EU thinking which is that these costs should be the responsibility of the airport terminal owner and operator. In the meantime, Ryanair regrettably will be levying a charge of £0.50 on every passenger carried in order to meet the cost of wheelchair assistance at Stansted, Gatwick, Dublin and Shannon airports, which are the only airports out of the 86 European airports Ryanair operates to who do not provide this mobility assistance through the airport terminal on a free of charge basis. Ryanair regrets this small levy but this defective County Court decision leaves us with no alternative. This levy will be withdrawn if and when this appeal is successful, which will we expect result in BAA Stansted being obliged to provide this assistance at Stansted on a free of charge basis to the disabled in line with current policy at the overwhelming majority of European airports.”

Attached is an extract from the current EU discussion document on disabled assistance at airports which recommends that airport operators/owners should be responsible for providing free of charge assistance to the disabled.

EXTRACT FROM THE EUROPEAN COMMISSION TRANSPORT DIRECTORATE STAFF WORKING PAPER

RIGHTS OF PERSONS WITH REDUCED MOBILITY WHEN
TRAVELLING BY AIR

17. The managing body of an airport has wide responsibilities throughout the airport and so looks be well placed to provide a comprehensive and seamless service. Moreover, it would be unreasonable to expect one airline to provide assistance throughout an airport, for its own passengers and for those transferred between carriers, in the terminals that it uses and in others. There is a strong case for making the airport manager responsible for organising and financing the assistance that people with reduced mobility need to use air transport. (It could supply the assistance itself or place contracts with suppliers.)

38. The solution suggested would avoid these problems as the charge levied on each airline would be proportional to the total quantity of passengers that it embarked and disembarked at an airport. In this way, it would be independent of the number of passengers with reduced mobility carried, so that the airline would little economic incentive to reduce their numbers. Such a scheme would not impose additional costs on the sector, except for that of extended assistance when required, but would change the way assistance at airports was
organised and financed: certain responsibilities would be transferred from air carriers to themanaging bodies of airports. However, the latter would not bear the cost themselves but rather charge it to the airlines using their airports. Airlines would pass the charge on to their passengers as a whole, so that it would be shared among a large number of citizens. And a person with reduced mobility would not be seen as an extra cost but welcomed as a passenger, at all stages from booking a ticket to arrival at destination.

Source: www.europa.eu.int/comm/transport/air/rights/index_en.

Attached is a list of 80 European airports where the terminal owner/operator provides disabled assistance free of charge.

Airports provide free assistance to passengers requesting wheelchair services

AUSTRIA
Graz/ Klagengurt/ Linz/ Salzburg

BELIGUM
Charleroi

DENMARK
Aarhus/ Esbjerg

FINLAND
Tampere

FRANCE
Beauvais/ Bergerac/Biarritz/ Brest/ Carcassonne/ Dinard/ La Rochelle/ Limoges/ Montpellier/ Nimes/ Pau/ Perpignan/ Poitiers/ Rodez/ St. Etienne/ Tours

GERMANY
Altenburg/ Baden-Baden/ Berlin/ Erfurt/ Freidrichshafen/ Hahn/ Lubeck/ Niederrhine

HOLLAND
Eindhoven/ Groningen

IRELAND
Cork/ Kerry/ Knock

ITALY
Algehero/ Anconca/ Bari/ Bergamo/ Brescia/ Ciampino/ Forli/ Genoa/ Palermo/ Pescara/ Pisa/ Treviso/ Trieste/ Turin

NORWAY
Haugesund/ Torp

PORTUGAL
Faro

SPAIN
Girona/ Jerez/ Murcia/ Reus/ Valladolid

SWEDEN
Gothenburg/ Malmo/ Skvasta/ Vasteras

UK
Blackpool/ Bournemouth/ Bristol/ Cardiff/ City of Derry/ LeedsBradford/ Liverpool/ Luton/ Newcastle/ Prestwick