SCORPENE SSK [ Technical Merits & Demerits ]

from JDW 30 Nov 2005

Spain orders DM2A4 heavyweight torpedoes
Richard Scott Jane’s Naval Consultant
London
Spain’s Ministry of Defence has placed an order with BAE Systems’ up-for-sale German subsidiary Atlas Elektronik for the supply of DM2A4 heavyweight torpedoes to equip the Spanish Navy’s four new S-80A submarines.
Originally developed for the German Navy’s new U-212A submarines, the DM2A4 is itself an evolution of the earlier DM2A3 weapon, featuring a high-energy electrical propulsion system, an upgraded guidance system (using fibre-optic rather than copper wire to provide for the weapon’s extended range) and improved navigation (replacing mechanical gyroscopes with strapdown fibre-optic gyros).
Other changes comprise a wake sensor – an upward-looking high-frequency sonar – and an electronics upgrade (notably the conversion of the analogue processing in the acoustic homing head to digital signal processing). Elsewhere, existing DM2A3 subsystems are retained, including the conformal acoustic sensor array.
Warshot battery technology for the DM2A4 is based on Friemann & Wolf zinc silver oxide technology. Atlas has adapted a modular battery concept that enables torpedoes to be configured with between one and four ‘energy packages’ depending on user requirements.
Spain, the second overseas customer for the DM2A4 after Turkey, originally signed a government-to-government agreement for the acquisition of the DM2A4 with Germany in November 2004 following a favourable technical evaluation.
According to Atlas Elektronik, Spanish industry “will be involved in the production of the torpedoes to a significant extent”.
The first S-80A submarine is scheduled to enter service in 2011, with further boats following at yearly intervals thereafter.

Scorpene is the best non-nuclear sub out there

it’s interessting that some sources claim that. until now there is no scorpene with mesma. how do they compare it to u-212 or a-19 or other subs?

Yeah, Mazagon SY acquires the ability to make submarines 🙂

LOL. Even thailand pays all chickens for buying the fighter… why cant India.

Is there an economic offset for this deal ??? anybody.

Yeah, Mazagon SY acquires the ability to make submarines 🙂

Is there an economic offset for this deal ??? anybody.

The outlook article says that the plan is to carry more lethal weapons including missiles after first two subs. It seems like a typo, should mean bigger missiles like Brahmos perhaps. It is possible that India may change the design of the sub after first two to put in AIP and bigger missiles like Storm Shadow/Brahmos.

The deal is for 6 with option for another 9. The first 6 also seem to be split into 2 and then 4. Seems like 2, 4, 9 which would make additional line less likely.

On the other hand it seems like Amur is being offered at US$150-200 per sub which means it is much easier to afford.

I think absorbing the scorp tech would be tall order. Sub tech is way more than the hull welding techniques.

Also I hope the second line of subs is of heavier variety like 2500-4000 tons which would give India a fall back in case, ATV is delayed

AIP would be necessary when you go on a long patrol out in the Blue water or if u require longer submerged endurance , Typical for Navy who dosent aspire or have Nuclear subs,

India would definatly aspires and would have few N subs so AIP is not a very urgent requirement for her , India can take time and decide on the AIP which suits her well or for that matter if Scorpene requires AIP.

The contract says and has an option of fitting AIP from 3rd sub onwards enough time to deliberate about it.

India Definately will go for Amur as Russia has offered a variant which is capable of firing 8 VLS Brahmos

IMO, This Scorpene is a waste of purchase. I agree with SATAN regarding Amur. Scorpene purchase doesnt give any advantage except some money for the french. India should have chosen AMUR

Plan has always been to get two different lines of classic subs. Scorp and Amur. Now that HDW has been de-blacklisted, 214 may be in the running.

for a non-strategic coastal patrol sub, operating under the protection of a strong surface navy (vs potential enemies), why is AIP so important ?

indian ports and waters are under little threat from the two potential enemies.

-vs- a hypothetical fight with USN, we are going to lose badly, AIP or no AIP so that’d
be the least of my worries 🙂

Scorpene is the best non-nuclear sub out there , Diving depth hardly matters to non nuclear subs , since they require power to sustain and make use of it.The contract clause is tow subs to be built at MDL and from 3rd sub onwards there is an option to opt for AIP system which i believe is the right approach.

MDL is starting its sun construction line after more than a decade , There is a steep learning curve to be met so its better to take one thing at a time and build upon it.

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?gid=73&id=327269

deal finally through: though at what cost????????

saw on the telly that the sub deal was through the political stage and was for the engineers to complete…also heard the defence analyst raja menon say on the NDTV channel that the first 3 subs come without MESMA..with options for the rest.. 😡 ..so what is the need for the sub?could someone enlighten moi? :mad:mazagaon docks are made a fool of by the govt. again 😮
are the first 3 off the shelf?

It seems that U212 (and hence possibly U214) is using a weapon called Barracuda… Supercavitation with an ingenious steering system and a speed of 360km/h (approx same as Shkval). Developed by Diehl and Atlas Elektronik. Although it should be said that no answers are officially given to the question whether U212 has this weapon.
Nonetheless U212 is a better submarine with the heavy new torpedo (and possibly this supercavitation weapon). I think they could negotiate to receive these weapons as India doesn’t directly pose a threat to Germany.
And also the offer with the Russian Klub incorporated sounds appealing, much better than the Scorpene.

My personal opinion is that the indian navy should have gone for the AMUR subs that Russia was offering with full transfer of technology. but keeping in mind, that these Scorpenes are going to be used primarily for coastal defense and facing off againt Pakistan’s AgostaB90s……the U-214 would have been a better choice. The diving depth alone is 400m against the scorpenes 300m.

IMO, This Scorpene is a waste of purchase. I agree with SATAN regarding Amur. Scorpene purchase doesnt give any advantage except some money for the french. India should have chosen AMUR

My personal opinion is that the indian navy should have gone for the AMUR subs that Russia was offering with full transfer of technology. but keeping in mind, that these Scorpenes are going to be used primarily for coastal defense and facing off againt Pakistan’s AgostaB90s……the U-214 would have been a better choice. The diving depth alone is 400m against the scorpenes 300m.

So, what exactly is the advantage of a stupid nuclear reactor when you don’t have the space to carry food or weapons for long range deployments? Nuclear propulsion is not economical, the only advantage are long-time deployments, that require much food and other stuff, and high power tech that can be installed, something this sub isn’t planned to have either, or at least nothing more consuming than the conventional version carries.

Well Scorpene has a great deal gained from French N-sub program , The French keeps on claiming that its a virtual Nuclear sub , Minus the Reactor , But It would require a small Nuke reactor to fit in , India still has to demonstrate this , Perhaps when ATV come out which by all indication is going to be very soon we will come to know about it.

Well, according to DCN, the good thing about Scorpene’s design is that it can be fitted with a small nuclear reactor. Amaris has been sharing some of the technology for the Triomphant SSBN with the IN.

Any links to prove this ? :confused:

Well so far about the deal which has come to light is 6 to be built at Maz Docks , with an option for 9 more and India has the freedom to export it to third country if she feels so.

Nothing on N-reactor on Scorpene , Its just a thinking that a small reactor could be fitted in to it.

Well, according to DCN, the good thing about Scorpene’s design is that it can be fitted with a small nuclear reactor. Amaris has been sharing some of the technology for the Triomphant SSBN with the IN.

Is 6 the final number of scorpenes? or more are likely to be built with nuclear reactors instead of AIP.
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Well so far about the deal which has come to light is 6 to be built at Maz Docks , with an option for 9 more and India has the freedom to export it to third country if she feels so.

Nothing on N-reactor on Scorpene , Its just a thinking that a small reactor could be fitted in to it.

Is 6 the final number of scorpenes? or more are likely to be built with nuclear reactors instead of AIP.