SCREW NATO — Old Europe responds

RE: SCREW NATO — Old Europe responds

ELP

I agree with you totally about NATO. The US dosn’t need the trouble.

As far as the UN goes, it should simply relocate to the bureaucratic centre of the world … ie Brussels. where the lines of communication to Bonn, Paris and Moscow are shorter.

Regards

Sauron

RE: SCREW NATO — Old Europe responds

France is a member of NATO now. That`s all that matters. And Belgium and germany have always been a faithful allies.

RE: SCREW NATO — Old Europe responds

France isn’t really in NATO anyway. You can thank De Gaulle for that 😉

RE: SCREW NATO — Old Europe responds

Some wise words Seahawk. It would indeed be better if these countries would ask to remove all American troops out of their countries.

The alliance is broken, and it would be better for countries like Belgium, Germany and France to drop out of NATO.

RE: SCREW NATO — Old Europe responds

Israel is positively the last nation in the world the US will incorporate into the coalition, and it will certainly not use Israel’s airbases. The US does not want to be seen as fighting Israel’s wars, or by serving Israeli interests by attacking an Arab nation. It needs Arab support, if not popular then at least the governments, and that means not incorporating Israel into the coalition.

On the other hand, there are currently several hundred American soldiers in Israel, helping defend it against possible Scud attacks. Again, this aid is ultimately aimed at preventing Israel from responding to a possible Iraqi attack, in order to preserve any coalition incorporating various Arab regimes.

attached: photos from the February 4 launch of a Patriot missile during “Juniper Cobra”, a joint US-Israel anti-Scud exercise.

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” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “

Attachments:

RE: SCREW NATO — Old Europe responds

Who says Turkey will start a war with Iraq ??

The fact remains that they asked for defensive weapons to be prepared in case of a Iraqi attack. This is not likely to happen, but even in the case of an internal revolt against Saddam, it is possible that he or loyal commanders would try to attack countries allied to the US. This can be Israel (likely), Kuwait, Saudi Arabia , the other Gulf States or Turkey.
Even if the chances that the weapons will be needed are slim, Turkey derserves the help from the other NATO members.

If you want to show that you are against a war with Iraq, you could always say that you will remove the weapons if Turkey gets involved in a war against Iraq.

But I personally I believe Turkey is just a scapegoat, that is used by France, Belgium and Germany to show theri anit american position. If these governments would have balls, they would close their airspace for US military planes. That would leave the US without the main european logistic stations in europe. That would surely reduce the likely hood of a war. And if they would really dare to oppose the US, then they would ask that all US troops are removed form the countries asap.

These moves would be polizical suicide imo, but it would be better then using Turky as a scapegoat.

NATO should be disbandet. It has lost any sense in todays world. Some european countries seem to see the US as the worst enemy to world peace and freedom, so they should be in an alliance with the US.

RE: SCREW NATO — Old Europe responds

Gary has hit the nail SQUARELY on the head with this statement:

I thought NATO was about defence from agression?

If the US and Turkey decide to attack Iraq and Iraq responds by trying to hit US bases in Turkey I don’t think it is any of NATO business.

Bingo! Do we all really assume that Iraq will hit Turkey anyways? C’mon! He will be more concerned about dealing with what the Americans are throwing at him than anything else.

NATO like Gary said is supposed to defend from an attack. If Turkey+the U.s decide to start a fight, explain to me why any other NATO member should commit anything.

JT

but it’s nice to know who stands where. So Nato(not solely the U.S.) wouldn’t intervene if Turkey was attacked by Iraq? did I get that right?

If Turkey wants to start a war, Turkey will deal with it itself. Period.

RE: SCREW NATO — Old Europe responds

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 11-02-03 AT 07:45 AM (GMT)]Well here is some update..

for some reasons my school transcripts didn’t get to the embassy so the members of the armed forces came to my grandfather’s home to get me for the service.. apart from that.. Turkey doesn’t need any help from anyone.. but it’s nice to know who stands where. So Nato(not solely the U.S.) wouldn’t intervene if Turkey was attacked by Iraq? did I get that right?

JJ,
what’s Israel’s standpoint as far as being in the coalition and letting the U.S. use some of the airbases?

RE: SCREW NATO — Old Europe responds

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 11-02-03 AT 06:59 AM (GMT)]Geforce,

Were you hyper-ventilating this much about war when we were bombing the hell out of Yugoslavia in 1999?

Your lack of WWII knowledge has never impressed me in the past so don’t start frothing at the mouth now like you know something about the topic. V. Manstien among others was wondering why France didn’t roll in and kick Germany’s head in at late ’39. They had the ability to do it at that time. Oh well. }>

I guess when France joins in at the last second and provides some help for the effort against Iraq, Germany will be left in a “unilateral” posture holding the bag with a funny look on their face. Their brilliant idea of adding more U.N. inspectors was worth a laugh or two. It would give Iraq endless entertainment value.

NATO served it’s purpose years ago. Getting rid of it now would be a good thing. Kicking the U.N. out of N.Y. should be next }>

RE: Project Mirage ????

>Project “mirage”?
>
>Sounds like an appropriate name for a French solution to a
>situation that might involve the military to me. 🙂
>
>Regards Sauron

I prefer Operation “Inspector Clouseau”.

This franco-german proposal is just stupid. If Iraq does not cooperate and hides the sensible parts from the inspectors you can have 2000 or 3000 of them and yet it will achieve nothing.
If Irak cooperates the current number can easily do the job. Remember that resolution 1441 demands that Iraq prooves that he has no WMDs – not the other way round. So it is up to Iraq to come up with conclusive evidence, that the disarment has been made.
The inspectors only job is to proove this.

When you turn it around and say the inspectors have to proove that Iraq had WMDs, then you are back to the early inspections and Iraq can continue to play games as long as their leadership wishes.

And on with Turkey , they did not rquest the weapons directly, they requested to start the planning for a situation in which Turkey needs help. And even this was refused by the “peace powers”.
At least Turkey now knows who is a ally and a friend and who is not.

I´m against a war in Iraq, but only Iraq can influence if there is a war ot not. If the inspectors are 100% happy with the cooperation, then even the US can noit attack. If the inspectors are unhappy and feel like the Iraqis are not cooperating, then you come to a point where any diplomatic effort is senseless.

Instead of making Saddam Hussein feel save by refusing to attack in case he does not follow resolution 1441, all european countries that should be telling him what happens if he does not cooperate with the inspectors.

Only outside pressure will influence him in that direction.

RE: Project Mirage ????

Project “mirage”?

Sounds like an appropriate name for a French solution to a situation that might involve the military to me. 🙂

Regards Sauron

RE: no disrespect….

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 11-02-03 AT 01:21 AM (GMT)]”the only thing of significe of what france, germany and belguim is doing is not allowing the US to use the EU and NATO’s names as a rubber stamp to ‘legitimise’ its own decisions and actions. “

Like they did in Kosovo…. so true Plawolf… and your other points are rather perceptive too…

RE: SCREW NATO — Old Europe responds

“So if the US attacks Iraq unilaterally, the European countries (well, only Germany, France and Belgium) should just let Iraq take revenge on Turkey, even though they could have helped? “

I thought NATO was about defence from agression?

If the US and Turkey decide to attack Iraq and Iraq responds by trying to hit US bases in Turkey I don’t think it is any of NATO business.

If saddam is to be condemned for gassing Iranian troops in self defence just because he started the war why should Turkey and the US be treated any different?
If they start a war and retaliation on them is their fault.

” At this time there`s no indication that Turkey will be invaded by Iraq. “

The likelyhood of an actual invasion by Iraq is silly. Even in 1990 before the invasion of Kuwaite when Saddam was still at full strength he probably couldn’t have managed it, take away most of his airforce, most of his armour, and add the Northern no fly zone and the fact that he doesn’t even control most of the territory in northern Iraq anymore and any suggestion of an invasion of Turkey is a joke.

His only means of attack would be the few Scuds he has left… and I am sure they are pointing at Israel if there are any.

“It always make me laugh when I see a cheap attempt by those who caused the problems in the first place, to try and shift the issue away from their own behavour by attacking others.”

Then I guess you must be laughin long and hard at Bush… }>

“US should have joined sooner to help defend Europe from Germany but hung back.. Now of course, it’s the US that is rushing to war.”

Of course the rest of the world will back up the US… the way the US has backed us up in the past… only fair. I guess we should join the war effort in 2005… two years delay… that seems to be the average US delay. }>

RE: SCREW NATO — Old Europe responds

Firstly I would like to commend France, Germany and Belgium for sticking to their principles. US tactics so far have failed to impress anybody and somewhat remind me of a typical playground bully. (I loved Joschka Fischer response to Rumsfelds attempts at condemnation and degradation of those states who oppose US policy, in Munich) The whole point of blocking the NATO vote to defend Turkey has emanated as a result of the Franco-German-Belgian alliance not wanting to inadvertently corner themselves thus undermining their common Iraq policy. If the Franco-German-Belgian alliance were to have allowed the vote to pass they would be sending a message to the world that an invasion on Iraq is inevitable and has the new found alliance’s endorsement where in actual fact the reality is quite the opposite. Rumsfeld has already stated that if France, Germany and Belgium were to block the vote then the US was willing to provide Patriots and E3s to Turkey. Hence whether Turkey’s national security will be jeopardised, as a result of the vote block, is not the issue here. The issue here is that the Franco-German-Belgian alliance will not be subjugated into taking the US position on Iraq. Then we have the issue of Project Mirage. Serious questions have to be raised as to why Powell has dismissed Project Mirage outrightly and accused it as a diversionary tactic. Surely if the US and UK have consistently maintained that war on Iraq is not inevitable then both nations would be willing to endorse and facilitate any potential peaceful resolution to the Iraq issue put forward by any alliance/state(s). Project Mirage is a workable solution and under the auspices of the UN can achieve the objectives on Bush’s agenda through a legitimate framework which enjoys popular backing across the globe.

RE: SCREW NATO — Old Europe responds

Ah it’s those evil Americans again, exploiting the worst aspects of European differences, ethnic hatreds and nationalisic tendancies so that it can continue to drain Europe, encourage division and enhance internal strife and sell arms.

Regards

Sauron

RE: SCREW NATO — Old Europe responds

>>>I don’t remember France and Germany consulting with their allies: heck, the Dutch PM had to read in the papers that Germany and France made this lunatic proposal. Pot to kettle…<<<

Touche. They were not the first to ‘go it alone’. I much find overtures for a peaceful settlement much more easy to stomach anyways to tell you the truth.

>>>And so did they spend a lot of money on Greece… I don’t see how the fact that Spain is a beneficiary means that they cannot oppose Germany and France. After all, weren’t you saying that Europe owes nothing to the US, even after they saved our a**es in WWI and WWII and helped rebuild Europe…<<<

The U.S has taken what it needed from Europe for 50 years now. They have been paid back in full and then some. Their deliberate attempts to nullify EU moves on integration are unacceptable. The America of the 40’s is gone now anyways.

Again, I don’t see why these nations needed to act in the dark on this. It’s not so much that they went against Germany and France (and others!), it’s that they sided with the side that wants to cancel out European moves for a common foreign policy. I should rightly expect funding to these nations from Germany to slow.

Btw, Greece remembers what it owes to who. The U.S has had a vested interest to keep the Aegean “warm” for decades to bolster arms sales. They have stayed silent on certain parties ‘adventures’ there too. They’ve forced Greece to spend lots on arms that could have gone elsewhere. They’ve taken back their Truman plan 10 times over.

RE: no disrespect….

but i think u guys are all missing the point a bit here.

1) turkey is not under attack yet, and the only real probablity that it will come under attack anytime in the near future is if iraq is attack by the US+UK using bases in turkey, or if saddam feels that war is innevitable and decides to ‘pre-empt’ the americans instead of sitting on his butt waiting for it to be blown off.

so there is no emmidiate need for partiots etc unless u plan to attack iraq asap, and it may even be a little dangerous to send a message of increased possiblity of hotilities to saddam, which, needless to say, is not exactly the best message to send to saddam right now, especially if we want to stop a war not start it.

2) turkey dont have to get its AWACS and patriots from NATO, and as things stand, it will get everything it asked for and more from the US, which means that its not ‘huge out to dry’ by the EU and NATO, as some ppl seem to think/imply. the only thing of significe of what france, germany and belguim is doing is not allowing the US to use the EU and NATO’s names as a rubber stamp to ‘legitimise’ its own decisions and actions.

last time i checked, the USA was not in europe, and if france, germany and belgium (which are in europe) are not qualified to deciede what the common european forgine policy should be, then the USA is even less qualaifed and should just shut up abt it and stop setting new records for hypocracy.

RE: SCREW NATO — Old Europe responds

Geforce,

It amazes me how easy you talk about the US supply in WWI and WWII: what do expect of them: to sned their sons and daughters to die each and every time some Europeans screw things up here? You should know better.

And Turkey will get help if it`s under attack, but at this moment, Iraq is not a real threat.
Yeah, I guess Turkey will be really gratefull that Patriots will arrive in Turkey two weeks after it has come under a SCUD attack, especially since it will take a few weeks more to deploy the batteries. Some help.

And if Turkey would have been a real ally, they wouldn`t have placed troops in Cyprus. Nice ally we have.
While in no way trying to condone the Turkish presence in Cyprus, things are a little different than the picture being painted here. At the time, Greece was governed by a military junta. The large Turkish minority in Cyprus was oppresed and discriminated against, and thus Turkey felt compelled to intervene. The wordl is not so black and white, remember Geforce?

And not only France and Belgium, JJ, also the Netherlands Norway, Sweden, Spain, Italy, all these countries who signed that pathetic letter a couple of weeks ago (or wanted to sign, but were not invited as was the case with the Netherlands).
I have no clue what you mean with this.

And we are forgetting Russia – though not a member of NATO – but supporter of the Franco-German peace plan. Russia has helped the US in the 9/11 aftermath, and so did Germany and France. But there has to be a limit.
Ofcourse there is: the Russians have their own interests to look after: oil, influence in the Middle East (the exact same reasons France is presenting their alternative and blocking help to Turkey).

Icarus,

Spain, Italy and the rest all have the RIGHT to act as they see fit, but the way they did it undermined the EU. Whether they like it or not, Europe is trying to forge a common policy. At the very least, they should have consulted their EU allies.
I don’t remember France and Germany consulting with their allies: heck, the Dutch PM had to read in the papers that Germany and France made this lunatic proposal. Pot to kettle…

Instead they purposely kept the ‘letter’ secret from the EU. They cannot on one hand accept billions in EU (mostly German) funding and not at the very least inform their benefactors of their actions. Whether they like it not, (especially Spain) Germany and the EU in general has spent alot of money modernizing their countries and what they did was shameful.
And so did they spend a lot of money on Greece… I don’t see how the fact that Spain is a beneficiary means that they cannot oppose Germany and France. After all, weren’t you saying that Europe owes nothing to the US, even after they saved our a**es in WWI and WWII and helped rebuild Europe…

Shalom,

Jonathan

RE: Geforce…..sigh…….

Well, what Gefore is right about it that the European population is generally against a unilateral US attack on Iraq.

But it seems he got a bit upset about it for some reason, perhaps he’s too young to be suitably cynical 😀

Funny thought which crossed my mind today:
Saddam grew his bio-warfare germs in the incubators his army stole from Kuwait.

}>

It would be fun though – reviving an old lie to produce a new one.

Geforce…..sigh…….

The simple fact is that Turkey, who is a part of NATO asked for DEFENSIVE weapons just in case, and certain European nations who are also part of NATO are trying to deny them that.

Geforce, what all this boils down to (or at least what it appears to boil down to) is that you are made that Europe as a whole isn’t against the United States. Your comment on the new member nations of NATO’s foreign policy not being correct just made that quite obvious. So in short, because they don’t believe the same way that France, and of course the almighty important nation of Belgium, they need to re-think things and take a new stance on things? Okay….

Come on Geforce, as smart as you are, I don’t think you are thinking clearly on this one.

And Sauron’s points regarding the U.S. and WWII are right on. You are guilty of the things he said to every letter. What’s gotten into you?