Sea Fury versus Mig 15

Talking of Carmichael’s Sea Fury…

Anyone know of any good photos of WJ232 during her spell in the Korean War on HMS Ocean? Do the books mentioned have any clear pics? I need to determine the details of the markings for an artwork project I’m doing.

Thanks in advance!

Jonathan

Don’t forget the “other” side! The story of a Chinese Yak-9 downing a USAF F-80C in July 1950.

That one is certainly mentioned a lot less often, but it’s right there in USAF records: July 19, 1950, 8th FBG F-80’s claimed 3 Yak-9’s, but one F-80 was damaged, then destroyed and the pilot, Capt Howard E Odell, killed attempting to land at a fwd airstrip.

One quibble is that the opponents were North Korean not Chinese. No fighter opposition before Nov 1 1950 has been shown to have been other than NK. And in this case it’s known that two NK pilots, Kim Hi Gyung and Tae Guk Sung, were downed this day in a combat with F-80’s. Both of them survived though, and claimed 3 F-80’s each, according to No Gum Suk (the 1953 MiG defector). Strangely, NK propaganda accounts AFAIK do not mention this combat. They do mention most others in the same period, in distorted but recognizable form.

OTOH, straightwing (more or less, the Me 262) jet downed by prop was pretty common in WWII, this was just the first *US* jet downed in air combat.

Joe

Don’t forget the “other” side! The story of a Chinese Yak-9 downing a USAF F-80C in July 1950.

That would be ‘Furies and Fireflies Over Korea’ one of the most error ridden misleading, poorly written and disapointing books that I have read, especially as I had waited another year past the originally expected publication date.
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Mmmm, shall I not bother buying it then…..
I was looking forward to a good read about the Sea Furies and Fireflys as well!
Alan

Well that’s what one of the flight told ‘the other magazine’ in interview a few years back

However, for publicity purposes, the Navy wanted the top man in charge to have the credit and so they gave it entirely to Carmichael.

Sorry but I don’t buy that.:(

That would be ‘Furies and Fireflies Over Korea’ one of the most error ridden misleading, poorly written and disapointing books that I have read,

I try to keep as complete library as possible on Korean air war books so I bought it, even though it apparently mainly duplicated the topic of the already thorough “With the Carriers in Korea” by John RP Landsdown. I haven’t read all of Thomas, but from what I have read I agree it’s not as good as Landsdowne. A lot of the FAA operations in Korea were pretty repetitive and not terribly exciting, and if one is not strongly interested Landsdowne might be somewhat of a slog to get through, but I am interested and recommend the Landsdowne book over Thomas for anyone else who is.

Re: B-29’s in Korea see post above, they probably actually downed 3 or 4 MiG’s v 27 credited, a repeat of the WWII phenomenon of highly overstated bombers claims. UN fighter claims in Korea were OTOH pretty accurate, though of course don’t perfectly correlate to available accounts from the other side. So only Sea Fury, F4U and B-29 were credited with MiG’s in Korea among props. Victories can be confirmed in Communist accounts for the latter two types; no specific account from the MiG side of the Sea Fury claim has surfaced AFAIK.

Joe

I remember reading the article but it must be at least five or six years ago I think. There was an interview of one of the participants whose name I do not recall. The gist of it was that there was a small island on the outward bound route which was used as a target to test the guns. When this is taken into account the amount of ammunition expended by Carmichael (I think it was a single figure) made it unlikely that he had downed the MiG or even fired at it. However, for publicity purposes, the Navy wanted the top man in charge to have the credit and so they gave it entirely to Carmichael. According to the interviewee this was accepted by everyone else involved because in those days you didn’t argue about such matters. It is also, I think, the only time in Korean War that an aircraft was shot down by a British pilot in a British aeroplane.

Apart from a US Corsair the only prop driven aircraft to shoot down a MiG were B-29s.

…the Graham Thomas book on the subject…

That would be ‘Furies and Fireflies Over Korea’ one of the most error ridden misleading, poorly written and disapointing books that I have read, especially as I had waited another year past the originally expected publication date.

The account of Carmichael’s Mig shoot down is on page 90 on which it is clear that another Mig was hit by fire from a number of aircraft in Carmichael’s flight before the latter’s ecounter with the Mig that was downed by him.

Thomas, for a one time MOD Focus chief reporter demonstrates a woeful lack of knowledge about aircraft controls, who does what WRT maintenance on air arm squadrons amongst other deficiencies in this particular narrative. The map provided is also woefully inadequate.

Well. something is out of place………maybe the F-51 kills was a likely probable or at least at first?

I don’t think that article can be treated as historical fact wrt to that claim, for the reasons stated in first two paragraphs of the last post. I don’t think there’s much more to say about that article.

The F-51 prob/dam credits I referred to were in other incidents, not that one.

Joe

That article turned into an embarassment for Airman. There’s no exact date given, but no evidence in reports for that period of any claim made at the time by that pilot (though he was a member of 18th FBW at the time), let alone officially recognized. The well known semi-official USAF author Robert Dorr wrote a highly critical letter to Airman about printing that article without more checking.

Separately, the only Soviet account in the period of engagement with prop fighters had them claiming several F-51’s (actually downing one) without loss.

Officially recognized prop *fighter* claims of MiG-15’s in Korea: just the Sea Fury one, and Jesse Folmar VMA-312, Sept 10, 1952. He was credited with a MiG, then his F4U-4B was downed by another shortly after, though he survived. That MiG loss is confirmed in a specific Communist account. See my post above, the Sea Fury claim is not confirmed in a known (so far) specific account from the other side, but appears very possible given the 2 losses suffered by Chinese MiG’s on fighter bomber hunting in that general period.

F-51’s got some official ‘damaged’ and ‘probable’ credits against MiG-15’s, but most can be found in Soviet accounts as to have been v their a/c, and they reported no losses in any of them.

Among all prop planes, B-29’s were official credited with 27 MiG-15’s destroyed in the Korean War. Study of those incidents from the other side shows the attackers to have been Soviet, and probably solely Soviet, in all but one case, and that 3 or 4 MiG’s were apparently actually destroyed; 1 of which was Chinese, with 2 of the Soviet ones in incidents *not* credited as victories at the time. As in WWII bomber claiming was much less accurate than fighter claiming. MiG losses to UN fighters were roughly 3/4 of what was credited as ‘destroyed’, but not counting ‘probable’ or ‘damaged’ at all.

Back to main topic, is there some article saying the Carmichael never fired on that mission? Can anyone just lay it out directly, and tell me the magazine and date, please?

Joe

Well. something is out of place………maybe the F-51 kills was a likely probable or at least at first?

brief overview.

That article turned into an embarassment for Airman. There’s no exact date given, but no evidence in reports for that period of any claim made at the time by that pilot (though he was a member of 18th FBW at the time), let alone officially recognized. The well known semi-official USAF author Robert Dorr wrote a highly critical letter to Airman about printing that article without more checking.

Separately, the only Soviet account in the period of engagement with prop fighters had them claiming several F-51’s (actually downing one) without loss.

Officially recognized prop *fighter* claims of MiG-15’s in Korea: just the Sea Fury one, and Jesse Folmar VMA-312, Sept 10, 1952. He was credited with a MiG, then his F4U-4B was downed by another shortly after, though he survived. That MiG loss is confirmed in a specific Communist account. See my post above, the Sea Fury claim is not confirmed in a known (so far) specific account from the other side, but appears very possible given the 2 losses suffered by Chinese MiG’s on fighter bomber hunting in that general period.

F-51’s got some official ‘damaged’ and ‘probable’ credits against MiG-15’s, but most can be found in Soviet accounts as to have been v their a/c, and they reported no losses in any of them.

Among all prop planes, B-29’s were official credited with 27 MiG-15’s destroyed in the Korean War. Study of those incidents from the other side shows the attackers to have been Soviet, and probably solely Soviet, in all but one case, and that 3 or 4 MiG’s were apparently actually destroyed; 1 of which was Chinese, with 2 of the Soviet ones in incidents *not* credited as victories at the time. As in WWII bomber claiming was much less accurate than fighter claiming. MiG losses to UN fighters were roughly 3/4 of what was credited as ‘destroyed’, but not counting ‘probable’ or ‘damaged’ at all.

Back to main topic, is there some article saying the Carmichael never fired on that mission? Can anyone just lay it out directly, and tell me the magazine and date, please?

Joe

www.af.mil/news/airman/0107/yingling.shtml brief overview.

Strange after all of these years to hear of it now? While, I have no reason to doubt the pilot or his word. I have a hard time thinking the USAF wouldn’t want to make the claim. Especially, after so much was made of the killing of MIG-15’s by Sea Furys and Corsairs………….the pilot part I understand but the kill itself just doesn’t make sense. Regardless, the Mustang could have just a easily shot down a MIG-15 as a Sea Fury or Corsair.:cool:

I was unaware that a P-51 Mustang shot down a Mig-15 during the Korean Conflict? Does anyone have details……..:confused:

www.af.mil/news/airman/0107/yingling.shtml brief overview.

P-51(D?) Mustang flown by 1LT. John Yingling, May 1952.

Matt

I was unaware that a P-51 Mustang shot down a Mig-15 during the Korean Conflict? Does anyone have details……..:confused:

I believe both Sea Fury’s and Corsairs (F4U-4) had Mig-15 Kills. Did any other prop aircraft get lucky?

P-51(D?) Mustang flown by 1LT. John Yingling, May 1952.

Matt

I believe both Sea Fury’s and Corsairs (F4U-4) had Mig-15 Kills. Did any other prop aircraft get lucky?

It appears to have been the custom to test fire guns before going into action . This each pilot would do and thus if all that had been done on a sortie was to test fire the weapons then this would be indicated by the amount of ammunition left in the aircraft upon its return .

“For the first encounter, Landsdown says “although the diary suggests that all four members…claimed a share..from a confused situation Carmichael as flight leader got the credit”.”

In the situation we were discussing, all 4 aircraft fired their guns… and all 4 claimed to have hit the Mig-15.

If anyone hadn’t fired their guns, I am quite sure their claim would have been removed from consideration at the time, so they would not be part of the current investigation discussion.

so the ammo count is a totally bogus suggestion.

Not if your guns weren’t fired at all… 😉