Seeing each other in RAF Night Bomber formations

That was not required … or helpful …

edit .. let me repeat myself more clearly. That pathetic comment is clearly nothing other than inflammatory – and simply was not necessary. For some curious reason tempers or nerves were badly frayed on 1 December. It was a temporary aberration and as far as I know has not seen here before to such a widespread degree. This may or may not have been to do with the server downtime interruption – who can tell. But apologies were made and people have slept on it. Fin!

Tactics changed constantly throughout the war so you need to ask when to get a reasonable answer to a good question.
For example for the Dresden raids, the Lancaster’s formed up over Reading a la Eighth Airforce before setting out for Germany. Although Bomber Command never flew in formation, they tried to compress the stream continuously throughout the war.

You’re absolutely right Damien – I’d forgotten that. Revise my comments above to put Damien’s point as primary reason. The others reasons are pertinent, but not as significant as this point.

Lancaster target.

If you get a chance, read “Lancaster Target” by Jack Currie. This is a facinating read and gives you an insite into how it was in bomber command.
I’m not sure if it is still available, if needs be, and you promise not to loose it I can lend you my copy.
As an aside, an old friend of mine was a mid-upper gunner on Lanc’s, flying from Ludford Magna, 101 Sqn. He told me when they took off, as soon as the skipper thought it safe to do so the “Nav & Ident” lights are turned off, he couldn’t remember seeing any Nav lights as they reached the coast. And as many of you possibly know, Ludford Magna is not more than 20 miles from the coast, not long in a Lanc.

Back to the question if we may … a few more facts IIRC

I’m reasonably sure I read somewhere (would have been in a book 😉 ) that nav lights were sometimes used when forming up, but I suggest that would have been in particular circumstances where perhaps the flight plan called for circling to gain height initially, more often than not as I understand it, the plan was simply takeoff and turn east.

As the war progressed nasty things called intruders began to be problematic – especially when landing. Airfields BTW were lit up for landing. This sentence applies equally to both sides.

The Bomber stream had at least three useful advantages that I can think about:
1. because close formation is impractical at night (to cut down collision danger)
2. as a means of mutual/self defence (not from firepower per USAAF but “hiding” in the many if you like) especially after window was used
3. as a means of concentrating the hitting power into waves – Deighton’s “Bomber” whilst fiction tells the story of the effect very well.
edit – see Damien’s post #27 below

And BTW there are accounts of night-fighters shooting down bombers cruising along with their nav lights on – either by mistake or malfunction – but either way fatal.

RAF heavies in daylight still used the Bomber Stream. Dave and others, get two almost identical books from any library (Dave you may find you could order them in?). Martin Middlebrook’s “Bomber Command War Diaries” and Roger Freeman’s “Mighty Eigth War DIaries”. Read them cover to cover, they are huge and fascinating – and at the end you will know all this stuff.

Lastly, the discussion above is an interesting issue – my recommendation is a bit of googling or library’ing first, but then as Dave says, the poster will often enough end up thinking “what about …?” And let’s face it, as we read various different perspectives on any given issue we all get to understand it a bit better. I’m happy to go about this topic (the Strategic Bombing Campaign) ad nauseam, it’s my pet project if you like. Please shut me up when necessary.

The postscript to that anecdote, of course, is that the number of aircraft lost to collisions on that raid was indeed two.

Well remembered Dogsbody! I had an inkling that was the case, but wasn’t sure if I had imagined remembering that or not!

Something that doesn’t really add much to how aircraft saw each other, but maybe of related interest. I unremember which biography I read this in, but it might have been The Eighth Passenger by Miles Tripp.

Anyhow, the author relates that during the briefings for Millenium, the first 1000 raid, the issue of collisions was briefed. The briefing officer said that the Boffins had calculated that despite the numbers of aircraft over the target, provided that everyone stuck to their times and routes, there would only be two aircraft lost through collision. To general laughter, someone asked if the boffins had also worked out which two aircraft it would be – the briefing officer allegedly answered by saying it would be a Tiger Moth and an Anson, which points to the desperate scraping up of every available machine for the raid.

WOW!!

I was told by others not to bother with this forum due to threads like this. I appreciate everyone has kissed & made up but i cant get over what i have just read 🙁

I have posted a few threads and have had nothing but positive help and information so far (fingers crossed)

At the end of the day you dont have to reply to posts do you ? if you do it is to be helpful, not to be condescending !!

I am disgusted 😡

Hi Mark G,
I’ve apologised to Dave for any offence, and offered to discuss over a drink.

I’ve said what you said about the point of the forum, and I’ve seconded John C’s remarks on the same topic. How many more ways do I have to agree?

Oh, and while I don’t perhaps agree with Mike, in every aspect, and his posts aren’t mine, as mine aren’t his, he does make some points worth thinking about, as have most of the other posts.

Cheers!

Mike J and JDK – what’s the matter with you people? This is a discussion forum. It’s intended for people to ask questions and for knowledge and information to be exchanged. That’s what it’s for.

You might like to consider this revolutionary concept – other people read these threads besides the original poster. That means that plenty of people will learn something from answers to other’s questions. That’s the beauty of a forum such as this.

To answer a perfectly reasonable and intelligent question, which I’m sure gnome thoroughly enjoyed answering, with the sort of nauseating sarcasm displayed by Mike J is frankly disgraceful, embarrassing and totally counter to the ethos and good-nature of this forum.

Pathetic. 😡

It is quite possible that the answer my be in a book available in the UK or Europe or the US but not in NZ (for example) On the other hand it may be only available in NZ or Oz. That’s what makes a forum like this compelling reading.
mmitch.

Thank you James, and I shall buy the first round I might add.

I have been finding all sorts of interesing features on the site you recommended, thank you.

The reason I asked about RAF day tactics – which was merely an afterthought to the main question – is a friend has a photo of 630 Sqn Lancasters on their way to a target (Milan) at low level, and in very tight formation. The photo was taken by one of the crew out the window of a Lancaster, and her husband was flying one of the other bombers seen. You can see about 20 Lancs in the photo, the formation is that tight, and it resembles the close formation of USAAF bombers as far as sticking in a very close, tight box. As I haven’t seen too many day formation photos from actual riads, as opposed to posing for the camera, it made me wonder after Gnome said at night they would “stream, basically a long loose gaggle of aircraft”.

As for the Memphis Belle, I was actually thining about the documentary, not the film. The narrator states that when the leader drops his bombs, everyone drops.

As for the niggle between USAAF and RAF about tactics, this is very well dramatised in ‘Over Here’.

However, I’m happy to see the questions on here. Personally I’ll research first and ask questions later, but sometimes it’s nice to see the answers to questions I hadn’t thought of

Another point is that this is a discussion forum. A comparatively straightforward question may generate some previously undeveloped angles or research.

For those of you dedicated enough to create books, consider the interest that a question asked may generate in your work

Wot he sa. Me 2.

Hi Dave,
Sorry for any offence. Please re-read my posts and don’t confuse it with other’s comments. Your answers are to some degree here: http://www.raf.mod.uk/bombercommand/ (as I suggested before Google search was ‘mod bomber command’) and here: http://www.raf.mod.uk/bombercommand/target.html

Dave, I enjoy your participation in the forum. I’ve often gone “well I never thought of that” after one of your posts. Keep it coming.

I did say there’s no such thing as a stupid question. However your remark implying that Bomber Command tactics might be similar to something in the Memphis Belle film did you no credit in terms of what I know you know.

We all live in different circumstances and have different levels of knowledge. Thank you.

We do. It’s what each of us do with the oportunities you have that is the mesure of each us, not where and what we start from. I don’t regard myself as an expert, I’m just a fellow learner.

Anyway, this all a overflowing teacup. I’m looking forward to raising a glass with you at some nice warm airshow venue in the antiupodies sometime soon. 😉

Cheers

Thank you Robbo and John C.

Thanks too James for posting that link, which has gone onto the thread whilst I wrote my response above. I have begun looking at the site but have not yet found the page detailing night formation.

WTF???

You know, it would be a lot more helpful if you simply recommended a book (or website) that details RAF night flying tactics rather than being obnoxious and condescending.

This question struck me WHILE I WAS READING A BOOK.

I do read books. I have many books. I use my library often, even though I have to travel a great distance to get to it!

Not one of the books I have read has yet answered the question of whether RAF night bombers used lights while in formation.

So I Googled, but as the internet is such a vast source of information, I could not find a site that conclusively answered my query. There’s lots and lots on Bomber Command, etc. But it’s a needle in a haystack finding whether lights were used, what type and when!

So I assumed that this was a legitimate enough question to ask on the forum, because there was bound to be someone here with some experience who may have come across the answer. Gnome and Damien kindly provided some interesting answers.

SO WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM???

Mike and James, I have a lot of respect for you both, you’ve obviously been around a long time and done a lot, particulalry in the Warbirds scene. Much more than I have ever done. You also obviously have a vast collections of books and easy access to others. Please do not assume that everyone else does. We all live in different circumstances and have different levels of knowledge. Thank you.

However, I’m happy to see the questions on here. Personally I’ll research first and ask questions later, but sometimes it’s nice to see the answers to questions I hadn’t thought of 🙂

Another point is that this is a discussion forum. A comparatively straightforward question may generate some previously undeveloped angles or research.

For those of you dedicated enough to create books, consider the interest that a question asked may generate in your work 🙂

JC
Can I be a moderator when I grow up?

Heh…

http://www.raf.mod.uk/bombercommand/

Not from a book (though Mike’s right on the research being book dependant) and a good place to do some prelim research.

There is, indeed no such thing as a stupid question.

It’s great how any question asked here gets interesting in due course…

Robbos points are all excellent. I reserve the right to disagree with “In this instance I think it’s a perfectly good question to ask.” But that’s just me!

Cheers

Wow, thought I was Mr Grumpy today!

There’s also ‘Libraries’, where through ‘Public Lending Rights’ (PLR) book people get money from a tax to allow you to look at books for free. It involves getting off your ‘bum’ and asking ‘a real person’ to get a ‘book’ though ‘inter library loan’ or ‘purchase’. and it costs a one of whatever currency your country uses. If you don’t use your ‘library’ then it will ‘become redundant’ and we’d have to rely on the ‘web’ which is full of ‘poo’ info as well as the occasional ‘gem in the poo’.

The web is a wonderful resource, and it’s great to ask questions on the forum, but if I was interviewing a veteran, Dave, and I hand’nt done my homework, I’d expect to lose a lot of credibility…

Please don’t be offended, it’s meant to be helpful!

Cheers

Dave,

The RAF adopted the precursor to ‘tight box formation’ in 1939 / 40 with Wellingtons over the Baltic. They got massacred by 109s, so switched to night bombing.

Dave – US is not UK, so tactics were different and there was (on both sides) a lot of ‘we are the pros we know what we are doing, the other lot are idiots’ as well as sharing of tactics and ideas. The ignorant snobbery has been downplayed since the war, the ‘all brothers together’ enhanced… and all this stuff is all in your “Boy’s book of W.W.II facts” also findable under Google or have a look at the bomber command area in the MOD website…

Good to talk, but do a teeny bit of homework looking and thinking fust, eh? I know you are more knowledgeable than that! 😉