Serial Number For 129 Squadron Mk V Spitfire

I’m afraid the ORB only records serials when an aircraft is delivered or when a mishap occurs. Several Wxxxx numbered aircraft are recorded in September: W3800, W3603 (both delivered Sept 7th), W3333 (lost Sept 7th), W3824 (delivered Sept 11th), W3449, W3637 (ground collision Sept 18th, W3893 (delivered Sept 26th).

I’d go along with VoyTech’s conjecture that aircraft ‘S’ could be W3893 due to it being delivered after P/O Whalen’s prang. However, it is just conjecture!

Just what I was thinking. Ivor, can we put our heads together to see if we can crack the case? PM me if you like. Of course, it’s possible that it was an aircraft already on hand that was made (or changed to) ‘S’. In the photo, W is obvious, the next digit seems that it MUST be 3, but I can’t make enough out of what follows to confidently narrow it down.

bob

no serial numbers are recorded in the log book, just individual airplane codes. (…)
I guess we will never know the serial of the Spit he flew with those markings.

Quite the opposite!
1st, by checking pre-17 September entries for ‘S’ in his log book and cross-checking with the Squadron ORB you might be able to ascertain the serial of the Spitfire he flew on that day (I guess it’s safe to assume it has not been recoded DV-S on 17 September morning, but had flown with these codes for a while before that).
2nd, by checking post-17 September entries for ‘S’ in his log book and cross-checking with the Squadron ORB you might be able to establish the serial of the Spitfire in the photo. W3893 is a candidate, being a W-serialled Spitfire delivered to 129 Sqn in the second half of September 1941, possibly as a replacement for the DV-S damaged on 17 September.

According to that photo, the serial starts with a “W”.

I’m not sure if it’s the same Spitfire, all I do know is that is was taken a few days after September 17, 1941. I have been in contact with a relative of Whalen who has the log book and no serial numbers are recorded in the log book, just individual airplane codes. Whalen went on to fly Hurricanes in Ceylone and Burma and was killed in 1944. I guess we will never know the serial of the Spit he flew with those markings. Thanks to all that offered help.

But Pat thinks that the photo isn’t the same airplane, if I interpreted correctly (sorry if I’m making a logical leap there, Pat). That is, if taken “after September”, it isn’t the same aircraft that he bellied in on 17 September, because that one went off for repair and didn’t (that I know of) come back to the squadron. Even if it did, it probably wouldn’t have still been ‘S’.

bob

The Spitfire is unlikely to be P8707 anyway, as it has the late style windscreen (P8707, being an early CBAF-built Mk V had the early style windscreen).

Ah, that makes me feel better- the 17 Sept aircraft could still be P8707, and this could be the new, replacement ‘S’.

Also, thanks Ivor for your comments. I’m glad to have some further information on these movements.

bob

The date of the picture is not certain, it would appear it was taken after September 1941. The caption I have tells of a sortie on September 17 and a few days later this picture was taken. That picture came of the web and I do not have the original, wish I did.

Darn it, Pat! Do you know when the photo was taken? Can you get any better a scan of the serial? I can’t make it out very well as posted, and what I “think” I see looks wonky enough that I don’t trust myself. I’m pretty sure that the first character isn’t ‘P’ 😉 Also, are you sure that it was “S” that got force-landed on 17 Sept?

bob

This one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs9bWEYt9qY

Weren’t 129 aircraft used for part of the filming of that wartime ATA film around then? I forget it’s title. The one with the american volunteer and a rather impressive display by Alex Henshaw? Might explain the code discrepancy. Then again, my own log bog has a few transposed serials in it!

Ferry Pilot! That was it!

This is the picture[ATTACH=CONFIG]224449[/ATTACH]

Bob, I’d agree that P8707 is the most likely candidate. According to the ORB 129 Squadron was declared operational on 21st August with Spitfire MkIas and IIs. It moved to Westhampnett on 28th August, re-equipping with Spitfires Mk Vb. I assume these were ex-610 Sqn. Four replacement or additional MkVb aircraft were delivered during early September. 2 more were delivered on the 21st, 2 on the 24th and one on the 26th. The serials of all these replacements are recorded but not for the aircraft taken over on the 28th/29th August.

Hi Pat, Wojtek, and all,

I believe that it was P8707:

39MU 29-6-41 616S 7-7 610S 19-7 CB ops 17-9 ASTE 331S 18-6-42 CB ops 29-6 LMS VSM 13-6-43 fuel syst mods S type pt fin MkII IFF ros 3-12 COAL RNDA 21-2-44 hook fitt RNAS Hens as hook Spit 11-5

There seems to have been a problem with recording the transfer of Mk.Vs from 610 to 129, though I admit I cannot now explain the evidence that led me to this conclusion. [Edit: having looked back at my information in the process of writing this posting I have begun to reconstruct my reasoning.]

My deduction was that 129 moved around the 19-22nd August to Westhampnett from Leconfield (ex Mk.I), taking over 610’s Vs, while 610 went the other direction (to IIa? or to a mix?). In early September (if my supposition is correct) 129 began getting a new batch of Mk.Vs, and the ones inherited from 610 (and before that 616) were disbursed- perhaps they were due for a major servicing? Or perhaps the new arrivals in September were simply replacements for individual aircraft, rather than a complete squadron re-equipment- some of the ex-610 aircraft were lost by 129 in October.

I’d welcome any supporting or contradictory information!

bob

Voytech

I think you may have it as he forcelanded with the weels up according to the combat report

http://www.canadianwings.com/whalen/report.html

Any chance you might post the picture here?
Also, did the Spitfire suffer any damage during the operation on 17 September 1941? P8707 was, apparently, damaged cat. B in combat on that date.

P/O Whalen’s Mk V Spitfire

Thanks to those that have provided information, I too discoverd -that serial number was never issued to any Spitfire, I have a picture of that Spitfire, however the serial number is not clear enought to read so I guess I’ll keep looking and wondering. Someday the mystery may get cleared up.

The snag, of course, is that W8707 is not a Spitfire serial number.
There were Spitfire VBs P8707 and W3707, but neither seems to have been used by 129 Sqn around the time.

It’s never easy, is it? I’ve had another look at the ORB to see if it records when the aircraft, or any with a similar serial, came on strength and unfortunately it doesn’t. Just to make it more fun, the ORB lists a couple of other MkVs that were not on 129’s strength according to the lists in Morgan & Shacklady.

P/O Whalen’s combat report doesn’t help; it only states that he was ‘Green 1’ of ‘B’ Flight.

The snag, of course, is that W8707 is not a Spitfire serial number.
There were Spitfire VBs P8707 and W3707, but neither seems to have been used by 129 Sqn around the time.