Sew on tunic stripes

Ross wrote, “Once the service person has been deceased for over 25 years the full service record is open to access from anyone regardless of kinship on payment of the fee.”

This is not quite accurate. Yes, once the 25 year period has been surpassed, a service record is open to anyone, but not a “full service record.”

The “full service record” — that is, the two to four forms (four for an officer) released for the princely sum of 30 pounds — is only sent to kin (and maybe only to true next-of-kin). A non-relative will only receive a heavily redacted record.

My experience is only with airmen who died in the war (thus, the CWGC listing is proof of death, so the 25 year period does not apply). Let me give an example. Three years ago I gambled and requested the file of F/Lt Edward Stanley, a 159 Sqn Liberator pilot killed over Rangoon on 29 Feb 1944. They gladly took my money and blocked out info. And the accompanying letter is a classic example of bureaucratic gibberish. An excerpt:

As notified within the MOD FOI Publication Scheme information contained in a record of Service which is not within the Department’s description of the information it will disclose under the publication scheme, for example medical or disciplinary information, is exempt from disclosure by virtue of sections 40 (personal data within the meaning of the Data Protection Act 1998), 41 (information provided in confidence) and 44 (prohibitions on disclosure) as its disclosure would breach Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights – (the right to a private and family life). The application of these exemptions is in recognition of MOD’s duty of care.

I have disclosed some information as part of the Department’s release under the publication scheme and this is therefore exempt from release under the Freedom of Information Act by virtue of the section 21 (reasonably accessible information). There is, however, additional information on the record which has not been provided. Since it has not been provided under the publication scheme it cannot be regarded as being exempt from disclosure under section 21 and unless there are other statutory grounds for withholding it the Department has a duty to provide it. I have therefore assessed the information to consider whether it should be released and find that the following substantive information should not be disclosed to you is as follows:

a. Subject’s civil occupation before joining the RAF
b. Subject’s home address
c. Name, address and relationship of the next of kin
d. Subject’s religion
e. Subject’s conduct and disciplinary assessment
f. Subject’s annual proficiency and character assessment
g. Subject’s medical records.

It is deemed a reasonable expectation to hold the above information as confidential until the point at which such records go fully into the public domain in The National Archive by virtue of the Public Records Act. This is when it is assessed that the record relates to a subject whose age is likely to exceed 100 years based on a batch sample of records.

MOD therefore believes that section 40 applies to personal data contained in the record of service of someone other than the applicant, section 41 applies to all the information contained in the records of service except where it is exempt by virtue of section 21 because MOD has publicly stated it will release this information or where it is exempt by virtue of section 44 (section 8 of the Human Rights Act 1998 that provides for the right to a private life).

Accordingly, I consider that:

a) the provision of information relating to the above serviceman’s religion, address of his family home, details of his next of kin would breach section 40 and 41 of the Act and be an invasion of privacy of any remaining immediate family members (section 44)

b) the disclosure of the subject’s medical, conduct and disciplinary assessment and his annual proficiency and character assessment would similarly invade their privacy (section 44) and would breach section 41 of the act.

That said, I have no difficulty in enclosing a copy of the actual record you requested, suitably redacted for the reasons explained above.

The records officer forgot to add “GIMME THAT 30 POUNDS!!!!!!!!!!!”

Dem’s da rules, so the officer was just doing her job. Understood…but…the geniuses who came up with the rules are flatliners devoid of souls.

Attached are the four photocopied pages of Edward Stanley’s record I received. That’s 7.50 pounds per page…minus the cost of copypaper, an envelope, and postage to America! For a non-commissioned airman, I think only two pages are released…which ups the per-page fee to 15 pounds!

The above wording is identical to that received by a close UK friend who, two years ago, requested the personnel file of the killed-on-ops airman she has determined, with 90% confidence, is her birth father. She cannot legally prove it, though. Consequently, the RAF people sent her a heavily redacted record, while scooping up her 30 pounds. She was devastated that they would not even reveal the man’s eye color and hair color. She had hoped this simple, HARMLESS information would either support her case or disqualify the airman as her father. There is a complaint/appeals process, but, sadly, she felt emotionally distraught and lost her will to fight.

Mike, apologies for going off on a tangent. Really, it would be in your family’s best interest to have a niece request the records, in order that you will receive maximum information, not a heavily redacted version. Either way, though, you will get the key information which will reveal whether or not Ralph was trained as a Wireless Operator. (Thanks for explaining that postings to training units will be included in the records, Mike Currill. I knew they were as of two years ago, but I didn’t know if the rules had changed again.)

Regards,

Matt

No, Mike, do not presume that it is not Ralph’s uniform until you see his RAF personnel file! He may have trained as a WOp/AG but then flew ops only as an AG. He still would have worn the shoulder WOp flash and the appropriate WOp-related half-wing brevit (the letter designation changed during the war).

Thanks for the information guys Ralph’s 2 nieces are the closest living relatives. I’ve checked the ORB he is listed only as an AG the only member of the crew listed as WT/AG is Sgt E Dyson. So I must presume that is not his uniform.

Check the MoD web site and read the details of SAR for RAF Service records.

Once the service person has been deceased for over 25 years the full service record is open to access from anyone regardless of kinship on payment of the fee.

For deaths that are covered in the CWGC registers then you do not need to provide a copy of the death certificate – the CWGC register is accepted as proof of death.

Ross

Thanks Matt, I’ve spoken to his niece I don’t believe they have any documentation, would it be possible for me to obtain this form he is a distant cousin of mine on her behalf. Regards Mike

Beachcomber – the only way that guarantees the documentation is for someone from his immediate family to sign the request paperwork.

If any of his sons, daughters, brothers or sisters are willing to sign then you should get the service records sent to them initially who can then pass it onto you.

Hope this helps.

Mat you are correct in thinking that training establishments will be listed in units a person served in. At least if they follow the system which was in place in the army when I left it. As an example my early service shows May 64 to May 65, JTR Rhyll. May-Sept 65, 8 Signal Regiment Catterick. Both of these were training establishments.

Mike,

I’m not familiar enough with the MoD rules these days, but they’re stingy with what they dole out, even for next-of-kin. I think the true NOK will have to submit a proof-of-kinship form, and then wait, wait, wait 20 weeks or so to get a disappointing two to four pages of records. (Contrast that to Canada and Australia, where a deceased airman’s records — hundreds of pages sometimes — are there for the public to acquire!!)

Start here, and choose the correct forms: https://www.gov.uk/requests-for-personal-data-and-service-records. Note that it will cost 30 pounds.

The website’s description of what will be released is a little vague, in that there is no specific mention of training schools, but I assume that training schools fall under the website’s descriptions of “the units in which he/she served” and “the dates of this service and the locations of those units”. A wireless school and an operational squadron are both units, after all. So, I do think that the family would receive the info to prove or disprove the WOp connection.

Good luck!

Cheers,

Matt

It’s also and still is worn by ground radio trades.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcosford/newsweather/index.cfm?storyid=2F0F44F1-1143-EC82-2EEF8CF039B9FEA0

Thanks Matt, I’ve spoken to his niece I don’t believe they have any documentation, would it be possible for me to obtain this form he is a distant cousin of mine on her behalf. Regards Mike

Mike,

The next-of-kin’s purchase of a copy of this airman’s RAF personnel file should reveal whether he was trained as a Wireless Operator/Air Gunner or just as an Air Gunner. If there is no wireless training on his record, that uniform cannot be his.

I know of WOp/AGs who flew their entire tours as AGs, with little or no wireless work on ops. But they still wore the WOp flash and the associated half-wing brevit, not just an AG brevit.

Regards,

Matt

ADDED LATER: Ross mentioned the “wartime Log or Form 541”. Yes, if the airman’s flight logbook survives in the hands of his family, this would be important in figuring out if he was a WOp/AG or just an AG. And perusing his squadron’s Operations Record Book (including Form 541s) also could solve the mystery.

Thanks Ross
This is a part of a photograph sent from the Red Cross from Denmark to a relative to confirm his identity this tunic was placed over his body. I’m trying to establish if the tunic was his or not or one just one placed there. He was listed as the rear gunner and the only one to exit the plane.

Depends on the info source for why he is described as rear gunner

Typically on a Lancaster there were 3 WOp/AG and one AG

To provide relief all four AGs could rotate positions and this more common when No.61 was flying Coastal Command patrols from St Eval during the few days before the period you mention.

The three WOp/AG could also rotate between wireless operator station and gun turrets.

So for a loss any airman in the rear turret could be WOp/AG or AG but AG was the most probable.

If the info comes from a crew muster eg wartime Log or Form 541 then one described as R/G would most probably be AG.

Ross

Thank’s Ross, that’s what I thought, so it wouldn’t be his jacket as he was a rear gunner

It’s the WOp flash

http://worthopedia.s3.amazonaws.com/images/thumbnails2/360/0411/12/360_242e88e059081f777875708e400e59a7.jpg

Regards
Ross