Shackleton WB833, Mull of Kintyre

Sounds like a lucky escape, Rex. Sorry you were not properly welcomed last August, but you are now !

Hope the book is going well for you.

Do you have any photos you feel like posting ?

I narrowly escaped my own demise as I had just recently left Sqdn. Ldr. Haggett’s crew for a new posting to St Mawgan. I have written an autobiography and in it I came to the same conclusion. I believe the radar operator was on sector scan trying to maintain contact with the submarine snorkel, and not seen the approaching land mass. It is an extremely tight area in which we operated with the subs.
Rex Wickins in my autobiography “Seven Billion People and Me”

I was a member of 204 squadron from 1963 till 1967. During that time I often flew with Sqdn. Ldr. Haggett. He did his flying training in the then Rhodesia and as I was South African we soon developed a friendship. We had also played a lot of rugby in our time, so I ended up with the nickname ‘Bokkie.’ Towards the end of my tour on 204 I flew as a permanent crew member on his crew. At the end of 1967 I was posted to St Mawgan on 42 Sqdn. A couple of months later they crashed into the Mull. The Beatles’ song ‘Mull of Kintyre’ now has tremendous connotations for me. I also knew ‘Duffy’ well. I have recently completed an autobiography ‘Seven Billion People and Me’ It covers my life from 1940 until 1970 and includes a year at RAF Hullavington, time at MOTU at RAF Kinloss and tours on 224, 204 and 42 squadrons as well as three years on 35 Sqdn SAAF. I am hoping that the Shackleton Association might distribute the book for me, otherwise it will be available on Kalahari.com from 1st Sept 2014. It has 480 pages with 235 photos.
I have been moved to find out about the memorial after so many years and that the crew, especially Clive Haggett and ‘Duffy’ as I always knew him. I have discussed the crash at length in my book and believe it may have been the radar operator who had been distracted trying to maintain contact with the subs snorkel. I have discussed many other crashes in the book, specifically talking to froends that had mannered to get out alive.

A really impressive and enduring memorial, and so generous of the builders to donate their time.

Photo here.

http://www.peakdistrictaircrashes.co.uk/pages/scotland/scotlandwb833.htm

Memorial Cairn

My name is Angie…. I have just joined the forum to say that I have finally managed to fulfill my wish, albeit some 43 years since that dreadful day changed all our lives….A huge memorial cairn has now been erected close the the crash site of WB833T to remember the eleven. The RAF Shackleton Association members donated the funding, and a local construction company provided free labour and material, and built it for me about two months ago….. Contact has recently been made with the family members of Sqn Ldr Haggett, Flt Lt Denny and possibly Fg Off Creedon…….My chap was Nat Duffy…and I know that he would have been proud of what I have done to remember them all.

I’m Jenny and like Vicky I have joined the forum to say how grateful I am to Angie for organising the memorial cairn. I only found out about recently thanks to the wonders of the world wide web.
Fg Off David Burton was my big brother and it’s good to know they are not forgotten. I’m planning to visit next year. Very many thanks again Angie.

Memorial Cairn

My name is Angie…. I have just joined the forum to say that I have finally managed to fulfill my wish, albeit some 43 years since that dreadful day changed all our lives….A huge memorial cairn has now been erected close the the crash site of WB833T to remember the eleven. The RAF Shackleton Association members donated the funding, and a local construction company provided free labour and material, and built it for me about two months ago….. Contact has recently been made with the family members of Sqn Ldr Haggett, Flt Lt Denny and possibly Fg Off Creedon…….My chap was Nat Duffy…and I know that he would have been proud of what I have done to remember them all.

Hi my name is Vicky and I am the youngest sister of Fg Off Michael Creedon. I have joined the forum just to convey my thanks for what you have achieved. I will now have a place to aim for when I visit on the anniversary next year. Thank you so much.

Memorial Cairn

My name is Angie…. I have just joined the forum to say that I have finally managed to fulfill my wish, albeit some 43 years since that dreadful day changed all our lives….A huge memorial cairn has now been erected close the the crash site of WB833T to remember the eleven. The RAF Shackleton Association members donated the funding, and a local construction company provided free labour and material, and built it for me about two months ago….. Contact has recently been made with the family members of Sqn Ldr Haggett, Flt Lt Denny and possibly Fg Off Creedon…….My chap was Nat Duffy…and I know that he would have been proud of what I have done to remember them all.

Hi my name is Vicky and I am the youngest sister of Fg Off Michael Creedon. I have joined the forum just to convey my thanks for what you have achieved. I will now have a place to aim for when I visit on the anniversary next year. Thank you so much.

I can only second what Phil has said so well, thanks to peope like you the crews lost in these awfull operational & training excercise flights will be remembered properly.
When we talk of these accidents the human angle can all too often be lost in time or distance from the subject.

Thanks for taking the time to join the forum and post the information Angie, maybe you will be able to post a picture of the cairn itself sometime.

You should be very proud of what you have acheived Angie.

The memorial will there for a very, very long time.

Welcome Angie,

Congratulations to you on your accomplishment, and to the others who have helped you to achieve this, something which has been so important to you for so long.

Everybody here will be glad to read this news and will feel your sense of achievement, which I hope will bring you peace and fulfilment of your ambition.

We will remember them.

Soggy

RAF Shackleton WB833T Memorial

My name is Angie…. I have just joined the forum to say that I have finally managed to fulfill my wish, albeit some 43 years since that dreadful day changed all our lives….A huge memorial cairn has now been erected close the the crash site of WB833T to remember the eleven. The RAF Shackleton Association members donated the funding, and a local construction company provided free labour and material, and built it for me about two months ago….. Contact has recently been made with the family members of Sqn Ldr Haggett, Flt Lt Denny and possibly Fg Off Creedon…….My chap was Nat Duffy…and I know that he would have been proud of what I have done to remember them all.

The only comment I will make; is that when I first joined 269 Squadron in 1956 our standard procedure, when on tracking back towards Ireland, that the Nav called 60 miles from Coast. If no contact was on radar we climbed to 6,000ft.
One our crew members at that time was on 833.
I agree with Pagen01, The large crew numbers emphasised the loss for the type.

Mo

Nice post exmpa, the Shackleton does seem to have a high crew loss record, but in the majority of cases the accidents can be attributed to bad SOPs & dangerous operating environments rather than any inherent weaknesses with the aircraft and crews.
The fact that the crew often numbered ten or more and there was little chance of abandoning the aircraft in many of the scenerios compounded the problem.

Blame squarely placed on the pilots ( so no risk of contageon to the senior ranks).

Don’t often see that. Oh hang on, yes we do.

At least the Chinook crew had some justice, but it took 20 years.

The key to this accident and a number of other incidents lay in the nature of the operational capabilities of the Shackleton. The aircraft and its tactics were essentially the same as those in use at the end of WW2, the primary ASW target was the conventional submarine and the primary search sensor the ASV21 radar. The radar employment policy varied according to the conditions, target type and mission tasking. The main radar policies were, Continuous All Round Scan (CARS), Intermittent All Round Scan, Beam Sector Scan, Sector Scan along a bearing. In all bar CARS some area in the vicinity of the aircraft would not be continuously illuminated by radar.

The Standard Operating Procedures (SOPs) in that era were somewhat less stringent than those we would expect today. Some may describe them as pragmatic given the capabilities of the equipment, if they had been more restrictive then it may have been extremely difficult to achieve the task. Whatever the case there was a much more risk involved in flying in that period.

I have not read the BoI report on this accident but I do know that as a result of it the SOPs for operation of radar in inshore waters was revised. The new requirement was to have the radar on CARS when operating below Minimum Safe Altitude (MSA) when within XX miles of land. I don’t know the specific figure, but by the time the Nimrod came into service it was 50 miles. There were other procedures introduced that required the Radar Operator to call the nearest land at certain times and give regular range calls if the aircraft was approaching land.

From the above it may be surmised that the BoI had considered that lack of radar information may have been at least a contributory factor in the accident.

The postscript to this accident is the loss of the 8 Sqn AEW2 on 30 Apr 1990. The aircraft was now operated by 11 Group under their SOPs which had been drafted for an environment that did not include low level operation in inshore waters. The final paragraph of the Accident Summary makes reference to the situation.

exmpa

Here’s the article. I didn’t write on the top which newspaper it came from, but it is the local paper cuttings are kept from at Campbeltown Library and Lochgilphead.

I’m more often surprised at what I can’t find on the internet than what I can.
There will be a report kicking around somewhere, and I do know that RCB always backed up his tremendous personal knowledge with AHB and TNA documents.
I won’t access the book until tonight, but ISTR that this accident was the last in a trio that triggered questions on the types safety?

I’ve just found it in my copy of the book. It notes that the accident was raised in the commons, and created quite a furore. With that in mind, it seems odd that I cant see any reference to that online.

I shall look and see if Hansard has anything on it.

By all means add that info to the thread, for completeness.

Bruce

I suspect the aircraft was carrying the markings of No.210 Sqn. If Ballykelly was like Kinloss, aircraft would be in the markings of one Squadron but would be crewed by another. One of those grey areas really.

Yes at that stage the Shackleton units were part of Wings, ie Kinloss Wing. Ballykelly Wing consisted of 204 and 210 sqns who provided the personnel, the aircraft were assigned to the Wing.

Bruce, RCB Ashworths’ book has a paragraph on the accident circumstances, would you like to see that copied here?

Thanks for the reply – no rush!