Shades of Tiananmen- US tanks crush Iraqi protestors in Square

Flood.

:p

Flood.

:confused:

:confused:

Originally posted by Sauron
Gee, the murderer who rolled a gernade into a tent fuill of sleeping fellow solders, had his name sullied! Can’t imagine that for a minute!

Sauron

Yes, can’t image he was thought a radical Muslim until after that incident…:rolleyes:

Flood.

Gee, the murderer who rolled a gernade into a tent fuill of sleeping fellow solders, had his name sullied! Can’t imagine that for a minute!

Sauron

Of course many soldiers were not in favor of going to war. My frined in the 82nd was not happy about it, and he thinks it’s bush’s personal vengence. HE does feel it is a “Good” thing that it happened, for thebetterment of the Iraqi people, but he wasn’t really for it.

There were many soldiers who made a big deal about it, and didn’t fight. They were probably court marsheld, or jailed. Most of these were people who signed up for the college money, and just “felt” they wouldn’t have to go to war. their mistake.

When you sign up, you are made to know that you will do what the government asks of you.

The fact is, though, nobody forced them to sign up.

that guy that roled the grenade, had recently become a very radical muslim. Why they had him in Kuwait is anybody’s guess, but I guess. Still, soldier or not, killing people get’s you thrown in jail of sentanced to death.

When you sign up, and are asked to go to war, you go to war. In other countries, they just tell you to go to war, you don’t even get to decide if you want to sign up or not.

Originally posted by pluto77189
In Iraq, everyone volunteered for the job, and knew they what they were getting into.

It is just a small point but surely in the ‘free world’ citizens volunteer to join the armed services to defend their country – not with the deliberate intention of going out and starting wars. In Britain there were a few service personnel who didn’t go – not sure what happened to them, though – and there were more who made it known that they didn’t agree with the idea of invading Iraq; I’d imagine that there were similar views held within the American services too.
Toppling the Talaban in Afghanistan is one thing: the armed forces could probably see the advantages to be had from going into that country, and the rest of the world was in (nearly) full agreement – but the invasion of Iraq was not internationally popular and no matter how much the high command tries to paint the French as being cowards for not backing America you can bet that there were quite a few military men who could see no point in going through with it bar the chance to garner a few medals, exercise the troops, gain a bit of publicity, and help get Bush re-elected.
Wasn’t a grenade rolled into a command tent by a soldier who disagreed with the war? Chances are his name has been sullied because of his action (that’s what usually happens, and you start to wonder why he was actually allowed in the service if he really was as bad as the stories paint him) but for every one like that there was probably 10-12 who felt the same but didn’t try to kill their C.O…
Also:

With the knowledge that he war is being fought by mILITARY leaders,and not politicians, the public knows it will be won. Support in Vietnam would have been much greater if it were fought correctly.

And how would you define correctly?
Politicians make demands: the military leaders follow them through. If it had been left to the military then Saddam might have been overthrown in 1991; he might have been assassinated at any point since then – by sniper or precision guided munition. The air force might have been destroyed on its air fields and the army bombed whilst in its barracks.
It was only politicians afraid of a public backlash that stopped that sort of thing happening. And that was because the public had bad memories of Vietnam.
You can say the public knows it will be won, but what happens when the public decide that it wants out because it is fed up with the images of body bags waiting to be returned? Will the public be reassured by claims that it will still be won?
It didn’t work in Spain.

Flood.

Originally posted by kev35

”

“IF I lived in a country where the leader had ultimate power, and ruled with an iron fist, and invaded other countries, and defied the UN for a decade, I wouldn’t be surprised when it happens. I’;d be happy he was faling, but upset that foreign troops were in my country, if just for my pride alone. Most people understand that “

If you live in America you already are. Iraq and Afghanistan are conquests of Bush Junior. Both countries were invaded by America. Did America not ignore the UN by invading Iraq? America only listens to the UN when it suits their purposes.

Regards,

kev35

do you really think that Bush has ultimate power? Sad. What kind of crap do they fed you in the media? Thought like that make me wonder exactly what kind of life you think Americans lead. Bush has power, but it’s not ultimate–far from it. He’s commander in cheif of the military, and with CONGRESSIONAL APPROVAL, AFTER going to the UN, and GETTING them to give Saddam a deadline, he went back to get them to follow through. They didn’t, he did–with CONGRESSIONAL APPROVAL. He never did anything without the majority support of congress. Congress is composed of Senators and representatives, elected by people of the US. Bush does not have ultimate power, and in fact, could have been stopped by congress if they wanted to. They didn’t.

Before making assumptions of American ignorance(I’m not referring to you, by the way), people should have an understanding of the way the country works.

Seriously, I don’t know how many people Ive spoken to, from other countries, that assume that the President has the authority over everything, and what he says goes. They think Bush is directly responsible, for every single aspect of American action overseas, and has ordered every single operation, attack, strike, directly. they think he’s in total control. He isn’t. He’s JUST the president, powerful yes, totally powerful, no. IF he was, he’d get removed, if not by congress, but by the people.

We have the power. Remember, we get to have guns….lots of guns. No dictatorships here…we won’t stand for it.

American soldiers joyus over the deaths of their enemies in vietnam, and americans praying for strenght are totally different. In Vietnam, we had many conscripts fighting. In Iraq, everyone volunteered for the job, and knew they what they were getting into. They are professionals, and “joy” over the deaths of enemies is much less prevalent. Does it happen? Of course, it’s war–these people were trying to kil them–war mentality is quite different than normal mentality.

Senator Kennedy said it’s Bush’s vietnam. Kennedy is a disgusting man, and should have been jailed for murdr, if not, manslughter. He’s goinig to say anything to discredit Bush, because Bush’s success–any of his successes–are a direct threat to Kennedy’s party obtaining any power.

You can argue about Iraq, it won’t do any good. We have an administration that has the reaolve to accomplish a goal. If Clinton had the same, bin LAden would have been killed a long time ago, and We would have kept troops in Somalia, and reinforced(as opposed to pulling out) UN forces in Rwanda.

So far, over 600 body bags have been brought home, and nobody’s changing their minds. With the knowledge that he war is being fought by mILITARY leaders,and not politicians, the public knows it will be won. Support in Vietnam would have been much greater if it were fought correctly. Instead, it lasted years, cost lives, and ended in disaster. Had Johnson acted as Bush has, letting the military do the thinking as well as the fighting, that would have been won.

Arguing over Iraq is pointless. We think we’re right, you think it’s wrong. Nobody will “know” what the truth was until time has passed. The Iraqi people have a very favorable outlook on their future, around 80% believe that they will be better off after power is handed over, than when they were under Saddam.
According to the recent polls, it seems more Iraqis support the coalition’s goals than Europeans!

Let them decide what’s best for themselves now.

“I think you’re misinterpreting what he said. God bless america is a song, and the line is something we say, a sort of a prayer.
There is nothing wrong with praying for strength. Praying for te deaths of our enemies, praising the loss of life, or sheer joyusness over the sufering of others is a totally different thing than praying to God asking for blessings.”

So in Vietnam US troops weren’t joyous over the death of ‘Charlie’ or ‘Victor Charles’? Don’t be silly. Body counts were grossly inflated. The practice of collecting ears from the dead, you consider that to be normal? And not a sign of joyousness? The numerous photographs that exist of dead Vietnamese with playing cards adorning their bodies or in some other grotesque pose. Those are examples of Americans asking for God’s blessing?

“Asking God for blessings, and exclaiming that death and suffering of others ARE blessing from God are totally different things.”

America has proclaimed that they have liberated Iraq which is not strictly true. They have deposed Hussein and unleashed a maelstrom of violence they cannot control. Is that really liberation?

“Well, nobody’s going to come over and depose the president. If the president was worth being deposed, the people that would do it would be US.”

And that might yet happen. Another 12 Marines dead, how many wounded? Aren’t some American reporters already calling Iraq ‘Bush’s Vietnam’? Just how many body bags are the American people prepared to accept?

“IF I lived in a country where the leader had ultimate power, and ruled with an iron fist, and invaded other countries, and defied the UN for a decade, I wouldn’t be surprised when it happens. I’;d be happy he was faling, but upset that foreign troops were in my country, if just for my pride alone. Most people understand that “

If you live in America you already are. Iraq and Afghanistan are conquests of Bush Junior. Both countries were invaded by America. Did America not ignore the UN by invading Iraq? America only listens to the UN when it suits their purposes.

Regards,

kev35

Originally posted by Flood
So he doesn’t mean it? Does the writer get royalties from it? Does it have a sort of diddle-de-pom finish?
Or was asking ‘god’ to bless America?
The Nazis had ‘god with us’ on their belt buckles, you know…

Flood.

The Nazis(and terrorists) were deliberatly exterminating innocent people for the sole purpose of exterminating innocent people.

Americans are not intentionally exterminating innocent people, and try to AVOID it, even at their own peril.

Now, if the president said god Bless America, when we were going to start to carpet bomb an iraqi city, knowingly killing innocent people, then I’d say it’s wrong. Asking for God’s blessing in a time of war, when we’re trying to accomplish our goals, avoid civilian casualties, and imporve the lives of the civilians, in my opinion, is perfectly reasonable.

Different intent.

Like I said before, ASKING for the help of God is one thing. Proclaiming God’s satisfaction of the death and mutilation of people–civilian or military–is sick, and an insult to any person of God. Even the sunni clerics, who despise the americans, and don’t reject their deaths, opposed the mutilation.

Originally posted by pluto77189
I think you’re misinterpreting what he said. God bless america is a song, and the line is something we say, a sort of a prayer.

So he doesn’t mean it? Does the writer get royalties from it? Does it have a sort of diddle-de-pom finish?
Or was asking ‘god’ to bless America?
The Nazis had ‘god with us’ on their belt buckles, you know…

Flood.

Originally posted by google
I’m not sure that the US’s line of thinking is any different from the terrorists. In one hand, the terrorist grabs a bomb and in the other, the Koran. How is this different from the president calling for invasion against a country, and in the next breath saying, ‘God bless America.’? This is arrogant, assuming that God will bless America and America only. Who is man, to request such blessings?

While I have no doubt your words are sincere, ‘Seriously, I would risk my own life to save the live of a terrorist’s child’, I think that you might not say the same in all circumstances, e.g. not behind a computer at work somewhere.

While the mullahs and clerics have no doubt perverted their own religion, we need to consider their point of view. What would you be saying if Iraq came over to the US and deposed President Bush and killed 13,000 civilians in the name of collateral damage and democracy?

I think you’re misinterpreting what he said. God bless america is a song, and the line is something we say, a sort of a prayer.
There is nothing wrong with praying for strength. Praying for te deaths of our enemies, praising the loss of life, or sheer joyusness over the sufering of others is a totally different thing than praying to God asking for blessings.

Asking God for blessings, and exclaiming that death and suffering of others ARE blessing from God are totally different things.

I think the figure of 13,000 is probably way stretched, but that’s besides the point.

Well, nobody’s going to come over and depose the president. If the president was worth being deposed, the people that would do it would be US.

IF I lived in a country where the leader had ultimate power, and ruled with an iron fist, and invaded other countries, and defied the UN for a decade, I wouldn’t be surprised when it happens. I’;d be happy he was faling, but upset that foreign troops were in my country, if just for my pride alone. Most people understand that

Originally posted by pluto77189
That’s part of the thing that disturbs me about our terrorist friends. They really, honestly, believe that causing suffering, terror, death and pain, makes God HAPPY. That mentality is SO opposed to the way I understand God.

Seriously, I would risk my own life to save the live of a terrorist’s child. It sickens me that they would give up their lives to kill mine.

The mullah’s and ayatollahs and clerics responsible for corrupting the people, and contorting their minds so as to even CONSIDER acts of evil as the will of God, are the scourgue of humanity. They are no better than the Nazis, the imperial Japanese, and other empires, who justified acts of evil as the will of God.

I’m not sure that the US’s line of thinking is any different from the terrorists. In one hand, the terrorist grabs a bomb and in the other, the Koran. How is this different from the president calling for invasion against a country, and in the next breath saying, ‘God bless America.’? This is arrogant, assuming that God will bless America and America only. Who is man, to request such blessings?

While I have no doubt your words are sincere, ‘Seriously, I would risk my own life to save the live of a terrorist’s child’, I think that you might not say the same in all circumstances, e.g. not behind a computer at work somewhere.

While the mullahs and clerics have no doubt perverted their own religion, we need to consider their point of view. What would you be saying if Iraq came over to the US and deposed President Bush and killed 13,000 civilians in the name of collateral damage and democracy?

Originally posted by Flood
But thats ok, coz ‘god’ only cares about how many unbelievers you send to their own god in ‘his’ name…:rolleyes:
Care to bless thy holy atom bomb, padre?:eek:

Flood.

One George Carlin joke that has a lot of people ****ed off, yet is totally true. “god is the #1 cause of death”. Not saying God is bad, not at all(Although George Carlin might disagree…)just that God’s “will” has been used to justify things that go against human nature itself. You just DON’t go around killing innocent people, anyone knows that. However, if God tells you too…..what are you going to do, deny GOD???

As far as I’m concerned, the ways of God are so unfathomable by humans, we cannot hope to know his will. Our only hope is to do our best, and hope it’s alright with him.

That’s part of the thing that disturbs me about our terrorist friends. They really, honestly, believe that causing suffering, terror, death and pain, makes God HAPPY. That mentality is SO opposed to the way I understand God.

The way I see it, any death, intentional, military, civilian, is BAD in the eyes of God. Now, the reasons behind the deaths, those differ(self defense, aving the lives of others, murder) but the loss of a life is always a “bad” thing in the ultimate, omnicient eyes of God.

We (humans)are responsible to keep the numbers of deaths down as low as possible, while limiting suffering, slavery, oppression,etc. This does NOT give all humans the JUSTIFICATION to police the rest of the world, but I think that’s the individual’s duty–try to do the best for mankind that you yurself can do.

Seriously, I would risk my own life to save the live of a terrorist’s child. It sickens me that they would give up their lives to kill mine.

The mullah’s and ayatollahs and clerics responsible for corrupting the people, and contorting their minds so as to even CONSIDER acts of evil as the will of God, are the scourgue of humanity. They are no better than the Nazis, the imperial Japanese, and other empires, who justified acts of evil as the will of God.

I see it over here, al the time. Many people simply think that you have to be a Christian to ge to heaven. fine with that, their beliefs. Unfortunatly, they use this belief to degrade the status of non-christians in the eyes of God–“if they’re not good enough for heaven, they’re not good enough for here.” Justification of evil through God’s will. IF it weren’t for Jesus actually, and CLEARLY saying “love your enemies”, Christians would have probably wiped out all other religions a few centuries ago.

I remember reading of some europeans giving bibles to native americans, and were “not allowed” to kill them(by the church) until they rejected the word of god(they couldn’t read). By not “accepting” the bible, they were thought to have “rejected” it, giving the Europeans the go-ahead from the almighty to wipe out the tribe.

kinda like the holy hand grenade.

…I love the holy hand grenade from monty python. Oh, that was one of the best moments in film…orang-GU-tans, and sloaths…

Originally posted by plawolf
only difference is the clubs have gotten bigger and ‘better’, as has the means to use god to justify unjustifiable acts. guess thats progress for u.:rolleyes:

But thats ok, coz ‘god’ only cares about how many unbelievers you send to their own god in ‘his’ name…:rolleyes:
Care to bless thy holy atom bomb, padre?:eek:

Flood.

“God seems top be the #1 cause of war these days.”

not just these days. ppl been bashing each other over the head in the name of one god then another since recorded history began.:(

only difference is the clubs have gotten bigger and ‘better’, as has the means to use god to justify unjustifiable acts. guess thats progress for u.:rolleyes:

Originally posted by pluto77189
Seriously, why would someone throw themselves in front of a 70 ton vehicle? Unless they had a shaped charge strapped to their back, I see no logic in this.

Exactly. I think we need to see more accounts from different sources (not just US ones) to see the exact situation.