Sheffield WW2 crashed bomber fly-past campaign starts

I have to admit I was very surprised to see the BBC make such a headline of the event, it makes you realise just how important these things still are to people and that the memory of guys like these isn’t in the least bit dead. I think if we are honest, there are many people on a forum such as this who end up wondering if such past events are all forgotten and/or that nobody cares, but it’s events such as this that just go to illustrate how quietly important these things are.

Congratulations to everyone who pulled this event together, not least Mr. Foulds for tending to the memorial so devotedly over the years. Inspirational.

This moistened my eyes, and also brought back strong memories that I have of seeing a Fortress go down on top of the inland cliff which now stands above the Eurotunnel terminal near Folkestone. They had been attacking the Doodlebug sites in the Pas de Calais and we had been able to see them being shot down by the Jerry flak over there. Now 86 I still have vivid memories of those days but no PTSD which the papers are saying many people suffer from today, incredible.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/fly-past-honors-wwii-airmen-who-died-saving-uk-children

Superb! Brought a lump to my throat. Amazing to see such an incredible turn out for this memorial. Well done tony and all involved…and also the many that turned up. Quite a sight to see. Would have been lovely if Sally B had been available.

Very moving – what an incredible effort by Tony and the RAF / USAF !

Brilliant, what a tribute and what a turn out by the people of Sheffield.

BBC Breakfast TV show live from Sheffield.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan…shire-47323045

Great news update on the BBC with a flypast now planned weather permitted being provided by the USAF.

Freeman – 22 February 1944 – 2BD 177 B-24s dispatched. 74 effective. 3 MIA. Targets of opportunity, Enschede, Arnhem, Nijmegen and Deventer.

“2BD was recalled when 100 miles inland [weather], and since they were over Germany they sought T/O; however, strong winds caused the formation to drift over Holland and four targets were bomb unintentionally.”

The ‘targets of opportunity’ may have all been in Germany but it seems that, in the bad weather of a European winter, some of the bombers were not where they thought they were when they bombed…..or were they?

According to Wikipedia this seems to have been more the case with the 177 B-24 bombers of the 2nd Bomb Division than with the 289 B-17 bombers of the 1st Bomb Division. However, reading between the lines, there are an awful lot of bombs that don’t seem to be accounted for; were they all safely jettisoned at sea or brought back to base?

I had never heard of the ‘accidental’ bombing of Nijmegen that day; and now it seems that it wasn’t as accidental as was suggested at the time. The more you look into this history the more interesting it becomes!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Nijmegen

Freeman doesn’t mention ‘diversions’, rather ‘Primary’, ‘secondary’ or ‘targets of opportunity’.

On 22 February 1944, 289 B-17s from 1st Bomb Division were despatched to attack a number of targets.

Aschersleben (Primary) 34 aircraft, Bernburg (Primary) 47 and Halberstadt (Primary) 18.

‘Targets of opportunity’ were Bunde 32, Wernegerode 19, Magdeburg 15 and Marburg 9, plus 7 other T/Os.

I’m fairly certain these are all in Germany.

It’s not possible to work out where the 305th BG and “Mi Amigo” went. The 305th would have flown from RAF Chelveston.

The trouble with some internet pages is that they mix the “next day returns” with later records. And often make wrong assertions.

Yes, exactly!

Didn’t see your post above until now; I was busy responding to your earlier post.

Roger Freeman and “Mighty Eighth War Diary” for 22 February 1944, says 38 B-17s lost from 1st BD and 3 B-17s from 2nd BD. Total 41.

For propaganda or morale reasons wartime figures often seem to quote ‘lost’, ‘missing’ or ‘failed-to-return’ aircraft; they must have thought the figures sounded better than quoting the actual totals including the ‘damaged-beyond-repair’ (although these wouldn’t be assessed for days later probably).

I stumbled across this interesting (if rather confusing!) website last night that details some of the losses from the mission that the crew of ‘Mi Amigo’ were on:

https://www.airmen.dk/p271operation.htm

Interestingly it was a ‘diversionary raid’ and especially interesting for myself as last night I was only a few miles away from Podington (or ‘Santa Pod’ as it is better known these days!) where the crew of ‘Mi Amigo’ seem to have taken-off from on that fateful day in 1944.

The only thing the website doesn’t seem to mention is how many aircraft took part in this ‘diversionary raid’?

Roger Freeman again (I tend to avoid the Internet…..)
14 October 1943 Schwienfurt. 320 B-17s despatached, 229 Effective. 60 B-17s MIA.
This does not include those lost over the U.K..
From the 60 were 5 KIA, 40 WIA and 594 MIA (not KIA) (remember these are the returns from the following day).
Extra to this was another 7 lost over the U.K. It would be months before it was known how many of the 594 MIA were dead, POWs or evaders. The trouble with some internet pages is that they mix the “next day returns” with later records. And often make wrong assertions.

Looking at overall losses for 8th AF. The total number KIA is equivalent to the number POW. Suggests that the rate is around 50% POW to KIA in shot downs. Ignores those cases of later dying of wounds, in captivity, and those killed on returned a/c but gives a rough reliable figure? The more I delve the more unreliable the figures are! I give up.

Look at second Schweinfurt raid. 60 b17s shot down…

590 aircrew KIA, 43 WIA and 65 POW.

I’m far more familiar with the first Schweinfurt mission so I looked those figures up on Wikipedia but the figures quoted there are a mistake in that they quote ~590 KIA. Later on the article states:

Some 229 of 291 B-17s hit the city area and ball bearing plants at Schweinfurt, Germany in two groups: the first group bombed at 1439–-1445 hours, the second group at 1451-–1457 hours. 60 B-17s were lost, two damaged beyond repair and 13 damaged (what???); casualties amounted to five KIA, 40 WIA and 594 MIA.

Of 2,900 crewmen, about 254 men did not return (what???) (65 survived as prisoners-of-war), while five killed-in-action and 43 wounded were in the damaged aircraft that returned (594 were listed as missing-in-action).

Among the most seriously affected American units was the 306th Bomb Group. It lost 100 men: 35 died on the mission or of wounds and 65 were captured.

So 291 B-17 bombers would have nominally 2910 crew aboard, fair enough, but I don’t understand the reference to ‘254 men did not return’ (from 60 shot-down B-17 bombers?) nor the ’65 survived as prisoners-of-war’ because looking at just the figures for the 306th Bomb Group quoted immediately below it states that the 306th ‘lost’ 100 men (ten B-17 bombers) and of these 100 men 35 died on the mission or of wounds and 65 were captured.

So if these 65 POW were all the total of 65 POW on the mission did no other crew member from any of the other 50 shot-down B-17 bombers, from any other Bomb Group, survive to become a POW? No, surely that is not credible!

Another case of people writing on Wikipedia and quoting fragments of information and conflating immediate post-mission reports with post-war statistics!

This is October 1943 and the Luftwaffe are defending against unescorted B-17 formations deep inside Germany and the worst affected unit, the 306th Bomb Group, still has a survival-rate of 65% for crew becoming POW from shot-down bombers…

…extrapolate that for approximately 600 crew ‘missing in action’, that would give you a better estimate for the POW total.

Roger Freeman and “Mighty Eighth War Diary” for 22 February 1944, says 38 B-17s lost from 1st BD and 3 B-24s from 2nd BD. Total 41.

35 KIA, 30 WIA and 397 MIA.

However, this does not include those B-17s lost over the U.K.

These are listed separately. So there was additionally this one, the “Mi Amigo”, plus two more that collided on take off (killing 18), one ditched in sea, one abandoned over U.K. and one crashing on landing. So 47 aircraft in total were lost that day.

It will take me a while to digest those figures but those survival figures quoted look shockingly low for shot-down B-17 bombers; if there is one quality that the B-17 is undisputed for, it is its toughness as an airframe and that, together with other factors, led to the best crew survival rate of any four-engined Allied bomber.

I think I’m right in saying that the overall survival-rate for shot-down Lancaster crew was one-in-seven (about 14%) and was the worst of the Allied heavy-bomber.

I seem to remember that the overall survival-rate for shot-down B-17 crew was almost exactly the reciprocal with six-in-seven (about 85%) surviving!

Don’t quote me! It’s been a while since I looked into it!

[QUOTE}that would effectively still mean 40 aircraft where every crew member was killed[/QUOTE]. No those KIA are over 43 aircraft. So 43 A/C where NEARLY every crew member was killed.

Look at second Schweinfurt raid. 60 b17s shot down. 17 returned damaged beyond repair and 121 lesser damaged.

590 aircrew KIA, 43 WIA and 65 POW.

Assuming most POW came from shot-downs. That means the remainder of those 540 aircrew from the 60 shot-downs were either KIA or WIA.

That puts the remaining 93 KIA/MIA in those returned planes. So somewhere between 50 and 93 aircrew were killed in those planes that returned?

Looking like the odds of surviving a shot-down not good. Around 10% POW, less than 10% WIA and rest dead?

No, I agree…..in my defence it was very late last night when I wrote that!

I had actually already looked up the mission against Aalborg airfield from which B-17 ‘Mi Amigo’ was lost and discovered that three other B-17 bombers were lost on the same mission and, unusually, two of these were lost with their entire crews (many of them after bailing-out over the sea) but I maintain that, overall, that is far from representative of average B-17 crew losses.

I’m not sure where the figures I’ve quoted were derived from; the very fact that such a high proportion were listed as ‘missing’ and none were listed as POW must mean that these are directly quoted wartime figures, however the numbers listed as ‘killed in action’ and ‘wounded in action’ are also very definite…

…so are these only the figures for those killed and wounded who were back on ‘friendly’ territory (like the crew of ‘Mi Amigo’)?

I still maintain that there is no way that 430 airmen were killed on 22nd February 1944.

I don’t think you can safely assume that “Missing In Action” equates to ‘taken prisoner’. That would put the death rate far too low.

Moggy