Shipboard Helicopters

I’ve still been reading this thread with great interest. Anybody else’s knowledge and/or experiences on the matter is still very welcome.

Logan Hartke

I know here with the RAn that we do this with HMAS Tobruk, though she doesn’t have any hanger space for a helo, she does deploy with a Seaking on the aft landing deck and either two or three Blackhawk helos forward, sometimes a Chinook.

As for our Hanger ships (all our frigates), they only deploy with their compliment of helo’s…

Anzac’s deploy with a Seahawk (perhaps oneday a Super Seasprite if they ever come into service)

Sydney class (former Adelaide class), they usually deploy with one Seahawk and one Squirrel. It is rare to see two Seahwaks on our FFG’s.

:diablo:
If you used the landing spot as per the grid, yes but as already said the A/C was launched from the rear deck edge with the main wheels at the edge it did work. Guess you had to be there and we were fighting a real war not playing and as has often been seen in the past what happens up front is what the boys achieve way outside what they are told by back room guys can be achieved. And I will end it at that. The FAA is one of the best of the best and have always come up truimphs when asked to do the impossible.:diablo:

Mate I am not getting into a bun fight with you, I know all about front line / war / operational risk etc and have been in plenty of ships / units where we have taken those very risks be it in the Falklands / Gulf War 1 / 2 and Afghanistan. Having just completed a 6 year back to back Front Line tour onboard INVC and LUST, I hope you are not implying I am a back room boy? Having served in the FAA for 26 years and still serving I think I am well qualified to speak on the subject. PM me and if you are still serving, I would be happy to get you a visit to the unit I currenty work in which is full of recent ex front line SMR’s, AEO’s (Lx / Harrier / SK4 / ASAC) and operators (Lynx Pilot QHI and SUY Aviation Officer Aircraft Handling).

Si

The flight deck movements I cant comment on, different branch, though the concept of two Lynxes side-by-side in a 42’s hangar wouldn’t immediately leap to mind as something I’d be in a hurry to try having stood in Exeters.

The thing that gets me about this is why they didnt just land the choppers on the RFA that must have been alongside the 42 in order to provide all this AVCAT!.

I forget the precise bunkerage of AVCAT embarked on a 42 and surely wouldnt be able to print it here if I could, but, its not going to keep half a dozen Lynxes operational for more than a couple of days at the kind of Optempo being described!.

UNREP every other day or something Shipmate? 🙂

Batch 1/2 Batch 3

FD Length
58.2ft / 17.8m 58.2ft / 17.8m

Width at Landing spot
32ft / 9.8m 36ft / 11m

Still no way you could operate 3/4 Lynx from a Batch 3. As this has gripped me I have just done a Autocad overlay of Lx onboard a T42 and I just cannot see how it could be done.

Si

:diablo:
If you used the landing spot as per the grid, yes but as already said the A/C was launched from the rear deck edge with the main wheels at the edge it did work. Guess you had to be there and we were fighting a real war not playing and as has often been seen in the past what happens up front is what the boys achieve way outside what they are told by back room guys can be achieved. And I will end it at that. The FAA is one of the best of the best and have always come up truimphs when asked to do the impossible.:diablo:

Interesting, never noticed! Closer examination of batch 3 does show a wider (add about 1m?) and more squared FD, although it is not immediately apparent (at least to me 😉 how much longer the FD is. It seems similar to the differences in FD between batch 1 and later batches of Type 22.

Batch 1/2 Batch 3

FD Length
58.2ft / 17.8m 58.2ft / 17.8m

Width at Landing spot
32ft / 9.8m 36ft / 11m

Still no way you could operate 3/4 Lynx from a Batch 3. As this has gripped me I have just done a Autocad overlay of Lx onboard a T42 and I just cannot see how it could be done.

Si

No, the Batch 1 and 2 where the shorter version and the batch 3 are wider and much longer and the flight decks are much larger on the Batch 3’s when compared to the rounded FD’s of the earlier batches. A T22 is a different beast altogether and was designed to have the space to operater much larger Helo’s such as the Sea King, which they did.;)

Interesting, never noticed! Closer examination of batch 3 does show a wider (add about 1m?) and more squared FD, although it is not immediately apparent (at least to me 😉 how much longer the FD is. It seems similar to the differences in FD between batch 1 and later batches of Type 22.

Shipmate,

I could be wrong but I’ve never heard of different batches of Type 42s having different flight deck sizes. Do seem to recall this about the Type 22 however. Any chance you meant Type 22?

No, the Batch 1 and 2 where the shorter version and the batch 3 are wider and much longer and the flight decks are much larger on the Batch 3’s when compared to the rounded FD’s of the earlier batches. A T22 is a different beast altogether and was designed to have the space to operater much larger Helo’s such as the Sea King, which they did.;)

Well Si,

in peace time they will be correct but as the T42’s have 2 very different flight deck sizes, Batch 3 have a much larger area and as the sea was smooth all the time during the war the Lynx tip toed on the edge of the after part of the deck, with their tail hanging over the sea. One aircraft was rolled as the fech and carry from other units bringing up weapons for the fighting rolled aircraft to use. I may be a little out on having the head to toa and across deck (front of hanger) at the same time, but the deck was very busy as the FDO would vouch. :diablo:

Shipmate,

I could be wrong but I’ve never heard of different batches of Type 42s having different flight deck sizes. Do seem to recall this about the Type 22 however. Any chance you meant Type 22?

Shipmate,
I would love to see a photo of that scenario…my current job looks at helicopter interoperability alongside some of the most seasoned Senior Maintanance Ratings from the RN Lynx world and I have just put your scenario to them. There is no way you could get 5 or 4 or 3 Lynx on a T42 and work the flight deck….a T23 maybe! You physically cannot put 2x Lx in the hangar (you can just fit a mk8), if you had a Lx across the hangar doors you could not operate an aircraft on the spot due to the landing and airborne scatter. You could just fit 2x Lx alongside each other on the spot but the distance between the port main wheel of one ac and the stbd main wheel of the other is 6 inches. This has been achieved in the past but…one of the aircraft had its main blades removed.

All the best

Si

Well Si,

in peace time they will be correct but as the T42’s have 2 very different flight deck sizes, Batch 3 have a much larger area and as the sea was smooth all the time during the war the Lynx tip toed on the edge of the after part of the deck, with their tail hanging over the sea. One aircraft was rolled as the fech and carry from other units bringing up weapons for the fighting rolled aircraft to use. I may be a little out on having the head to toa and across deck (front of hanger) at the same time, but the deck was very busy as the FDO would vouch. :diablo:

Well for normal peace time ops most sail with one as the operating costs climb when you take more. However ref you comments, it has been know for forward operating vessels with a single spot to have a few helo’s operating from them. A RN T42 managed to have head to toa in her hanger, one across the hanger door another burning and turning on the spot and often one ready to land on, yes that makes 5 and yes it did happen during the First Gulf War, was there to see it. The T42 was used as a FOL for the task as the Lynx where taking out the Iraq’ navy at the time as nothing else had the weapons to do so.

It was not easy as we also had Sea King’s coming in too from time to time too.:)

Shipmate,
I would love to see a photo of that scenario…my current job looks at helicopter interoperability alongside some of the most seasoned Senior Maintanance Ratings from the RN Lynx world and I have just put your scenario to them. There is no way you could get 5 or 4 or 3 Lynx on a T42 and work the flight deck….a T23 maybe! You physically cannot put 2x Lx in the hangar (you can just fit a mk8), if you had a Lx across the hangar doors you could not operate an aircraft on the spot due to the landing and airborne scatter. You could just fit 2x Lx alongside each other on the spot but the distance between the port main wheel of one ac and the stbd main wheel of the other is 6 inches. This has been achieved in the past but…one of the aircraft had its main blades removed.

All the best

Si

Helo’s at sea

I just had a quick question for those in the know in various navies. While I have a number of acquaintances in the US SH-60 club, my knowledge of other navies’ routines is less intimate.

I was curious, while I know that most navies just embark as many helicopters as they have hangar space for, are there any that normally embark as many as they have room for? For example, if there is room for one lashed to the deck and one in the hangar, do they ever sail with two? Is this even an operational possibility (short of an emergency)? In other words, do some ships with hangar space for only one helicopter even have the berthing space, weapons, fuel, etc. for the additional crew that would be required to operate two?

I would think that the advantages of the second helicopter would make it worthwhile for a navy to go to the trouble of embarking in an operational scenario.

Logan Hartke

Well for normal peace time ops most sail with one as the operating costs climb when you take more. However ref you comments, it has been know for forward operating vessels with a single spot to have a few helo’s operating from them. A RN T42 managed to have head to toa in her hanger, one across the hanger door another burning and turning on the spot and often one ready to land on, yes that makes 5 and yes it did happen during the First Gulf War, was there to see it. The T42 was used as a FOL for the task as the Lynx where taking out the Iraq’ navy at the time as nothing else had the weapons to do so.

It was not easy as we also had Sea King’s coming in too from time to time too.:)

As far as I know, nobody does this, with the possible exception of wartime, and even then, I doubt many people would do it. It is possible that some of the helo-pad equipped corvettes (i.e. large missile patrol boats, with a helo pad on top, rather than the mini-frigate type corvettes) may do sometimes, but I doubt it. A number of helo pad equipped ships with no hangar may try to carry a helo, and just put a protective cover on it, but I suspect the only nations to try would be ones who can’t afford proper ships with aviation facilities. Try looking at some of the smaller Gulf states, or possibly some of the South American or Asian nations…