Short Stirling

Multiple threads cause so much confusion on my poor brain..

BF516
50 49 30.0N
000 24 30.0E
PA (Position approximate chart symbol)

12/09/75
Permission has been given to the recovery of a Stirling from approx NG TQ 689054 (SC4(AIR)ROOM 0/3 Metropole Bldg).

RAF PMA Letter to R McNeill 24/02/98
No record of licence issued and no confirmation of recovery. PMA/133159/4(CS)1b(2(a(RAF).

So approximate position, permission given around time of PMA Act but nothing large declared as recovered subsequently apart from the fragments on this thread.

Also no new chart updates due to ongoing scans over the last 40 years so I would put this on the unlikely to still exist spike.

Ross

Thanks again Mark

I’ll pass the info on

John

John,

I found these two online a few months ago and posted them a few pages back, if there is a renewed focus on underwater wrecks these might also be worth adding to the list, obviously they are not as well located or referenced as the others,

Quote:
Stirling Mark III BF516 PX-E

BF516 was a Stirling Mk III of 214 Sqn lost on the way back from a raid on Nuremberg by 653 aircraft on the night of 10 / 11 August 1943. The aircraft was coded ‘PX-E’ which was a little unusual as most 214 Squadron aircraft were coded ‘BU-‘. PX was the ‘C’ Flight Squadron code.
They were based at Chedburgh in Suffolk. The port outer engine cut when they were 5 miles west of Nuremberg and nearly caught fire when the pilot attempted to re-start it so the propellor was feathered (blades turned to reduce drag). The aircraft then strayed off course on the way home and they lost a 2nd engine over France. The crew questioned if they should bale out but decided against that, instead they would try to get home.
They then ran out of fuel and had to ditch into Pevensey Bay off Bexhill. All were rendered unconscious in the crash but F/S Hall was the first to recover and immediately began to try to get his crew out. Two crewmen (Sgts Buckle and Smith) were killed and the other five men were subsequently rescued by a Sea Rescue dinghy and brought ashore. Robert Moorby was taken to Naval Sick Quarters in Lewes, where he stayed for 2 weeks. The rest of the crew went back to the Squadron.

There is a letter of thanks to the Air Sea Rescue Launch Captain from Robert Moorby in a small museum at Breznett, near New Romney in Kent, along with parts of the Stirling.

Date of loss : 11 August 1943

Crew of Stirling Mark III BF516 PX-E consisted of :

Sgt Kenneth Ronald Buckle, Flight Engineer, KIA
FS Harry Ernest Hall BEM, 1436050, Pilot, Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve, Nationality : United Kingdom, KIA 22 September 1943, Aged 21
Sgt J Hanna, Mid Upper Gunner
Sgt Robert Victor Moorby, NCO 1287570 COM 185918, Wireless Operator, Nationality : United Kingdom
Sgt G Parnell, 1579972, Mid Upper Gunner, Nationality : United Kingdom, POW 22 September 1943
Sgt A F Short, Bomb Aimer
Sgt Eric Ronald Smith, Navigator, KIA

Source : Nightjar Newsletter Autumn 2003 and Robert Moorby and Shirley Whitlock and Ian Hunt

Date record last updated : 5 August 2009

Quote:
Stirling Mark III EF445 BU-J

The crew of EF445, coded BU-J consisted of:

1485104 F/Sgt. G.A. Atkinson, Captain & Pilot. (missing).
1388280 Sgt. H.J. Friend, Bomb-Aimer.
1807915 Sgt. D.C. Hughes, Flight Engineer.
1513213 Sgt. W.B. Edwards, Navigator.
1892607 Sgt. R.L. Bouttell, Mid-Upper Gunner.
1368303 Sgt. J.C.Wilson, Wireless-Operator.
R.79844 Sgt. W. Sweeney, Rear-Gunner. (wounded & missing).

The above-named formed the crew of a Stirling aircraft detailed to bomb Berlin on the night of 22nd/23rd November 1943 ( 22/11/1943 ). Just before they reached the target area the oil pressure on the port outer engine began to drop and the captain noticed that the propeller was revolving at excessive speed. He decided to complete the bombing run and the Bomb-Aimer sighted and released the bombs correctly one minute after E.T.A. dangerously low and the propeller was feathered to prevent a seizure wit the result that the aircraft was losing height. At 9,000 ft. it was dropping into icing cloud and the pilot restarted the engine to gain more height for crossing a bad front. The engine started but had to be stopped almost immediately to prevent it catching fire and the propeller then failed to refeather but continued to “windmill”. The aircraft lost height steadily until it was only 1500 ft. above ground at a position given by the Navigator as 20 miles east of Hanover. Near this place, the aircraft was engaged by “flak” which wounded the Rear-Gunner in the right leg but he refused to leave the turret.

The Wireless-Operator sent out an S.O.S. at about 21.45 hours and repeated it until it was acknowledged. It was picked up at 22.30 as a very faint signal and he was given a fix. From then onwards, although reception was very bad, he maintained communication with the ground sending the height, speed, course and D.R. position, obtained from Navigator, at intervals.

Near the Zuider Zee, the aircraft was picked up by the searchlights which were attacked by the gunners and, crossing the island at about 50 ft. the aircraft was again engaged by flak and searchlights; fifteen to twenty five of the latter were shot at by the gunners and doused. A F.W. 190 intercepted the Stirling but was shot down in flames by the Rear-Gunner.

When the Flight-Engineer reported there was only 10 minutes of fuel remaining, the captain ordered the crew to take up their ditching stations. Because of icing, a head wind and the wind-milling airscrew, the speed had been very low. Information of their plight was signaled to the ground station and the aircraft was fixed accurately as the Operator pressed his key down when the aircraft ditched halfway across the North Sea at 00.34 hours. Prior to ditching , the Captain called out the height of the aircraft as it approached the water and the Navigator gave him a surface………???????

The aircraft bounced off a swell and then made a very heavy impact with the water which caused the nose to sink in and the fuselage to break in half. The pilot was trapped in the nose and went under as the aircraft broke in two. The Navigator jumped into the dinghy and dragged in the Mid-Upper Gunner from the water. They heard the Wireless Operator calling, paddled up to him and helped him on board. The Rear-Gunner, who had been observed to jump into the sea was also heard to call but they failed to find him and he was not picked up. After drifting for about an hour blowing their whistles, they heard an answering whistle, in the darkness, and eventually picked up the Flight Engineer from his “K” type dinghy. When the Stirling hit the sea, the Bomb-Aimer got out of the astro hatch but was swept into the sea by the waves. The Flight Engineer passed him a “K” dinghy which was swept away. The Bomb-Aimer re-entered the almost submerged fuselage, found another “K” dinghy, held his breath and swam out again as the aircraft sank, three minutes after ditching. He inflated the dinghy and climbed in, but although he heard other members of the crew shouting and answered, he was too weak to paddle towards the sound and lost touch with them. After sunrise, he hoisted a red sail and fired a star cartridge when an Air-Sea Rescue Hudson approached.

The Hudson crew dropped smoke floats alongside and he was shortly after taken on board a high speed launch which continued the search and picked up the other four surviving members of the crew from the big dinghy about 40 minutes later. The Captain and Rear-Gunner could not be found.

THE ABOVE IS AN OFFICIAL RAF DOCUMENT POSTED IN MEMORIAL TO GEORGE ATKINSON BY HIS FAMILY, THE ENTIRE DOCUMENT IS ON THIS SITE UNDER PERSONNEL

A substantial wreck, even if badly corroded and only of use for castings and former patterns would still seem to be a worthwhile recovery.

I know the Stirling is a very large aircraft to contemplate a full reproduction for, but the German Condor project seems to be demonstrating it can be done from salt water wrecks as patterns.

If these wrecks arent surveyed and usable components recovered soon the opportunity will be lost.

regards

Mark Pilkington

Thanks Mark

I’ve not been on that Forum so will have to send the link to our Chairman for his input.

regards

John

Glad to be of help John,

the forum was/is the 12 o’clock high / Luftwaffe-allied airforces discussion forum, the link was meant to be at the bottom of my last post but here is it again if that one isnt showing.

The posts are from October this year.

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=22609

regards

Mark Pilkington

Hi Mark

Thanks for the glowing endorsement 😀

The RAFM has been very helpful to us and has allowed us to survey the remains of the Mickle Fell Stirling which as aided us enormously.

Can you let me know which Forum you saw the referenced post on please?

regards

John

I was reading the Stirling projects website as this is a project I take keen interest in and admire from afar, and noted the following and felt they were worth pasting here to reconfirm what the project’s objective is, and its liaison with the RAFM, given past and recent posts in the forum complaining about the RAFM not handing over its Stirling parts, (or equally the IWM not handing over its Halifax cockpit to the YAM Friday the 13th composite reproduction), where as both of those objects are of important historical significance in their own right, seperate to these reproduction projects.

http://www.stirlingproject.co.uk

The Stirling Project was constituted in 1997 under the Chairmanship of a former XV Squadron navigator to further the education of the public in all aspects of the Short Stirling Bomber. The immediate aim is that of preserving components and documentary evidence of this historic aircraft.

The committee has set itself the long term aim of constructing a forward section of fuselage and is confident of being able to re-create the necessary drawings.

The Case for a Cockpit Rebuild

Following WWII, Stirling aircraft were scrapped without thought of preserving an example for posterity; sadly none survives, not even a cockpit to display to the public. The Stirling Project plans to address this by building a complete front fuselage section of a Stirling bomber. This will be full scale, and of aluminium riveted construction, with everything as close to the original as possible. Few original Shorts manufacturer’s drawings survive, however following over 30 years of research, we have gathered a vast amount of information with which to undertake this rebuild. Data derived from this search are now being processed by modern technology to produce a 3-D CAD (computer aided design) simulation.. This will help us to ‘reverse engineer’ a complete front fuselage section, encompassing the whole flight deck, with our pilot’s instrument panel, throttle box, pilot’s seats & chassis, rudder pedals and control columns, all of which are simultaneously being worked on by members of The Stirling Project. We also intend to install our previously completed FN5 front gun turret. The Cockpit section will eventually extend to 24 feet and will include the wireless operator and flight engineer stations as well as those for the pilots, bomb aimer and navigator. Naturally, funding is needed for all this, but we also require something more; we also depend on working space, having sufficient skilled and unskilled volunteers, tools, equipment and of course materials and resources. This is a big undertaking and will depend on raising further money. It will need to be planned carefully but with your help this can be achieved. If you would like to make a donation, be involved, or can offer any Stirling parts or equipment, we would be most pleased to hear from you.

AMENDMENT TO THE CONSTITUTION.

At an Extraordinary General Meeting of the Project, held on Friday the 30th July 2004, at RAF Wyton, the following amendment was agreed:

“If or when the Stirling Project is wound up for any reason, any Stirling artefacts, information, and copies of drawings belonging to the Stirling Project shall, in the first instance, be offered to the Royal Air Force Museum.”

The Royal Air Force Museum collaborates with the Stirling Project.

An arrangement has been reached between the Stirling Project and the Royal Air Force Museum Restoration Centre at Cosford, with the assistance of Air Chief Marshal Sir Richard Johns. The Manager of the Museum, Bruce James, has kindly informed us that various items from the Museum’s collection of Stirling parts will be made available to us for use by the design department to produce engineering drawings. The largest parts come from Stirling LK488, which crashed at Mickle Fell, Yorkshire, on 19th October 1944. The aircraft struck the backbone of Yorkshire’s highest peak. One wing caught the summit and was wrenched off. The remainder of the aircraft cartwheeled over the summit. The forward fuselage caught the full impact and was torn apart. Six of the crew were killed and the only survivor was the rear gunner. Various sections of The Royal Air Force joined in the recovery operation, which took place on 31st August 1977. The photographs show some of the recovered wreckage.

Hopefully the reproduction forward fuselage will go on display at the RAFM along side these remaining original sections, (and hopefully including those currently on display in overseas collections.)

Even more hopefully, the return of the RAFM to the recovery mode as shown by the recent announcements over the DO-17 might also see a renewed focus on a Stirling wreck location and recovery from the sea or fresh water lake?

Anyone got details of this one mentioned on recently on another forum?

Stirling Bomber Wreck

——————————————————————————–

I was in Worthing recently enjoying the Summer sun with my wife and kids and stumbled upon a piece of interesting Short Stirling information.

Along the seafont was a temporary exhibition of maritime artefacts and one of the display panels showed a Stirling Bomber. I scribbled down what it said…

…’Found in 1970, this bomber was lying on it’s back with its wheels down at 50 46 21 N;00 14 00 W. The divers found her when recovering a trawl which had caught on the aircraft. The Stirling, a Mark III from 76 Squadron was returning from a raid on Frankfurt and ditched offshore. A Supermarine Walrus floatplane picked up the crew and dropped them of at Worthing Pier’…

Along with the Goodwin Sands Dornier recovery it would be great to see this one raised to fill in the Bomber Command ‘gap’ at the RAFM. Back in May I spoke to a few ex-Stilring crew at a signing event for the Bomber Command Memorial and they had been campaigning to get a Russian built Stirling brought to England but as yet without success.

Re: Stirling Bomber Wreck

——————————————————————————–

Hi,

76 Sqn flew Halifax. The aircraft was from No.75 Sqn, BF455 lost on 10-11/04/43.

“Stirling III BF455 captained by F/Sgt Rothschild was hit over the target by AA fire and also chased by enemy fighters.
This caused him to run short of petrol over the English Channel on the way home, and he eventually crash landed in the sea, 3 miles off Shoreham.
The wireless procedure had been perfect, and Spitfires escorted it from the French coast and a Walrus flying boat was waiting for it to crash land.
Dinghy drill was perfect and all the crew got in safely after an immaculate landing – the Stirling floating for 25 minutes.
The final scene was enacted in the Channel as the Walrus collided with the dinghy and dropped all the crew in the sea. No ill-effects except for Sgt Grainger, the flight engineer, who suffered from shock.”
AIR27/646

Regards
Ross

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=22609

regards

Mark Pilkington

Got the Prop off BF516

I owuld love to see a stirling recovered. Is there no fresh water stirlings??

.
The elusive motherload of Stirling wreckage still attracts my interest, I found these two interesting records on the 214 squadron page:

Stirling Mark III BF516 PX-E

BF516 was a Stirling Mk III of 214 Sqn lost on the way back from a raid on Nuremberg by 653 aircraft on the night of 10 / 11 August 1943. The aircraft was coded ‘PX-E’ which was a little unusual as most 214 Squadron aircraft were coded ‘BU-‘. PX was the ‘C’ Flight Squadron code.
They were based at Chedburgh in Suffolk. The port outer engine cut when they were 5 miles west of Nuremberg and nearly caught fire when the pilot attempted to re-start it so the propellor was feathered (blades turned to reduce drag). The aircraft then strayed off course on the way home and they lost a 2nd engine over France. The crew questioned if they should bale out but decided against that, instead they would try to get home.
They then ran out of fuel and had to ditch into Pevensey Bay off Bexhill. All were rendered unconscious in the crash but F/S Hall was the first to recover and immediately began to try to get his crew out. Two crewmen (Sgts Buckle and Smith) were killed and the other five men were subsequently rescued by a Sea Rescue dinghy and brought ashore. Robert Moorby was taken to Naval Sick Quarters in Lewes, where he stayed for 2 weeks. The rest of the crew went back to the Squadron.

There is a letter of thanks to the Air Sea Rescue Launch Captain from Robert Moorby in a small museum at Breznett, near New Romney in Kent, along with parts of the Stirling.

Date of loss : 11 August 1943

Crew of Stirling Mark III BF516 PX-E consisted of :

Sgt Kenneth Ronald Buckle, Flight Engineer, KIA
FS Harry Ernest Hall BEM, 1436050, Pilot, Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve, Nationality : United Kingdom, KIA 22 September 1943, Aged 21
Sgt J Hanna, Mid Upper Gunner
Sgt Robert Victor Moorby, NCO 1287570 COM 185918, Wireless Operator, Nationality : United Kingdom
Sgt G Parnell, 1579972, Mid Upper Gunner, Nationality : United Kingdom, POW 22 September 1943
Sgt A F Short, Bomb Aimer
Sgt Eric Ronald Smith, Navigator, KIA

Source : Nightjar Newsletter Autumn 2003 and Robert Moorby and Shirley Whitlock and Ian Hunt

Date record last updated : 5 August 2009

Stirling Mark III EF445 BU-J

The crew of EF445, coded BU-J consisted of:

1485104 F/Sgt. G.A. Atkinson, Captain & Pilot. (missing).
1388280 Sgt. H.J. Friend, Bomb-Aimer.
1807915 Sgt. D.C. Hughes, Flight Engineer.
1513213 Sgt. W.B. Edwards, Navigator.
1892607 Sgt. R.L. Bouttell, Mid-Upper Gunner.
1368303 Sgt. J.C.Wilson, Wireless-Operator.
R.79844 Sgt. W. Sweeney, Rear-Gunner. (wounded & missing).

The above-named formed the crew of a Stirling aircraft detailed to bomb Berlin on the night of 22nd/23rd November 1943 ( 22/11/1943 ). Just before they reached the target area the oil pressure on the port outer engine began to drop and the captain noticed that the propeller was revolving at excessive speed. He decided to complete the bombing run and the Bomb-Aimer sighted and released the bombs correctly one minute after E.T.A. dangerously low and the propeller was feathered to prevent a seizure wit the result that the aircraft was losing height. At 9,000 ft. it was dropping into icing cloud and the pilot restarted the engine to gain more height for crossing a bad front. The engine started but had to be stopped almost immediately to prevent it catching fire and the propeller then failed to refeather but continued to “windmill”. The aircraft lost height steadily until it was only 1500 ft. above ground at a position given by the Navigator as 20 miles east of Hanover. Near this place, the aircraft was engaged by “flak” which wounded the Rear-Gunner in the right leg but he refused to leave the turret.

The Wireless-Operator sent out an S.O.S. at about 21.45 hours and repeated it until it was acknowledged. It was picked up at 22.30 as a very faint signal and he was given a fix. From then onwards, although reception was very bad, he maintained communication with the ground sending the height, speed, course and D.R. position, obtained from Navigator, at intervals.

Near the Zuider Zee, the aircraft was picked up by the searchlights which were attacked by the gunners and, crossing the island at about 50 ft. the aircraft was again engaged by flak and searchlights; fifteen to twenty five of the latter were shot at by the gunners and doused. A F.W. 190 intercepted the Stirling but was shot down in flames by the Rear-Gunner.

When the Flight-Engineer reported there was only 10 minutes of fuel remaining, the captain ordered the crew to take up their ditching stations. Because of icing, a head wind and the wind-milling airscrew, the speed had been very low. Information of their plight was signaled to the ground station and the aircraft was fixed accurately as the Operator pressed his key down when the aircraft ditched halfway across the North Sea at 00.34 hours. Prior to ditching , the Captain called out the height of the aircraft as it approached the water and the Navigator gave him a surface………???????

The aircraft bounced off a swell and then made a very heavy impact with the water which caused the nose to sink in and the fuselage to break in half. The pilot was trapped in the nose and went under as the aircraft broke in two. The Navigator jumped into the dinghy and dragged in the Mid-Upper Gunner from the water. They heard the Wireless Operator calling, paddled up to him and helped him on board. The Rear-Gunner, who had been observed to jump into the sea was also heard to call but they failed to find him and he was not picked up. After drifting for about an hour blowing their whistles, they heard an answering whistle, in the darkness, and eventually picked up the Flight Engineer from his “K” type dinghy. When the Stirling hit the sea, the Bomb-Aimer got out of the astro hatch but was swept into the sea by the waves. The Flight Engineer passed him a “K” dinghy which was swept away. The Bomb-Aimer re-entered the almost submerged fuselage, found another “K” dinghy, held his breath and swam out again as the aircraft sank, three minutes after ditching. He inflated the dinghy and climbed in, but although he heard other members of the crew shouting and answered, he was too weak to paddle towards the sound and lost touch with them. After sunrise, he hoisted a red sail and fired a star cartridge when an Air-Sea Rescue Hudson approached.

The Hudson crew dropped smoke floats alongside and he was shortly after taken on board a high speed launch which continued the search and picked up the other four surviving members of the crew from the big dinghy about 40 minutes later. The Captain and Rear-Gunner could not be found.

THE ABOVE IS AN OFFICIAL RAF DOCUMENT POSTED IN MEMORIAL TO GEORGE ATKINSON BY HIS FAMILY, THE ENTIRE DOCUMENT IS ON THIS SITE UNDER PERSONNEL

Both long shots after this time in salt water, and one is like fishing for a needle in a haystack, but it would seem fishing for a deep sea Stirling, would seem more worthwhile than a third Halifax?

regards

Mark Pilkington

This is also the one as once rumoured in Flapast during the mid eighties as the only possible Stirling wreck that could be salvaged similar to the Halifaxes.
Alas, the pics prove otherwise.:(

The other wreck was investigated by the RAF Sub Aqua Club and after about a year halted as you mentioned because of a “war grave”. Then why work on it for so long before stopping, such a waste of the taxpayers money (not in my book though).
Have you looked up the correct explanation of a wargrave? Very interesting and also would get some egg on faces in high places:rolleyes:

Cees

Well I`d like to know the answer to that one myself Mark.There was one in a Swedish Lake,in bits,with a crew member unaccounted for,with explosives on board,under a few feet of sawdusty gunge ..which would bring visibility down to zero….maybe that`s the one..and why it has not been recovered.Seem to remember it being surveyed and machine guns in containers showing up in the scans..but it`s a designated war grave.

.
Well theres nothing like some photos to confirm a rumour smiles, its a pity this one was recovered and scrapped, that lot sitting at the bottom of a fresh water lake for 60 years would still be likely to form a viable static restoration even today.

So that still leaves the question – where is the well known wreck in a deep lake mentioned above, and what survives?

My quoted post above still refers to TT’s original post and the suggestion one does still survive in a lake, is this true, or confusion rumours based on this recovered wreck?

regards

Mark Pilkington

LJ899 being recovered.

[ATTACH]184095[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]184096[/ATTACH]

I thought Stirling LJ899 might have been the “well known Stirling underwater mentioned above” ?

“Stirling LJ899 of 190 Sqdn made a forced landing on the lake Store Røgden on the border to Sweden. Of the 18 paratroopers onboard, four drowned.”

http://ktsorens.tihlde.org/flyvrak/sorkedalen.html

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1975/1975%20-%202085.html

http://hem.bredband.net/vue/projekt_flygplan_shortstirling.htm

From the dive report above, it seems the lake is only 3 metres deep, and the wreck was blown up with dynamite some time after it ditched after hitting a pine tree on approach, killing 4 occupants – ie “scrapped in place” and the remains were apparantly later fully recovered when the lake was dry in the mid 1970s?

So that still leaves the question – where is the well known wreck in a deep lake mentioned above, and what survives?

Regards

Mark Pilkington

Stirling Project

There is a good core team of active members; the Project Manager, two draftsmen, a 3D CAD designer and a rigger, plus many others in support. All of which are involved in sourcing of parts, restoration, and new manufacture of components too. Many have followed this thread with interest.

In an ideal world, to recreate or restore a type you need a straight airframe and +100’s of good dimensioned drawings. For the Stirling neither exists, so the next best thing is to collect together original components, drawings and photos, with the initial intention of making an accurate forward fuselage.

There is a lot of talk in this thread about “missing links”, “data plate specials”, “gallant efforts”, “preserving originality”, etc. In simple terms though, if people want to see a substantial part of a Stirling again, then this project is the best way to go about it:

In essence, the way you go about accurately recreating something from scratch is to gather together the best available information. There are some (but not many) Shorts drawings available. Every known piece of airframe has to be measured, collected, or photographed for reference. Production line photos can be useful too if they show enough structural detail, inside and out. The Stirling Project has been going for 10+ years, and it has taken much of this time for the draftsmen to measure, refine and calculate relatively accurate dimensions for key parts of the fuselage, and has seen members travel throughout Europe to find parts. Over the same period, others have been restoring and making original parts such as the turret, and flight deck fittings.

The Project is now at the stage where good confidence in the accuracy of the 2D drawings, has been proven by myself using this data to create a full size 3D model of the forward fuselage on CAD. A couple of tricky areas ahead, and below of the windscreen are just coming together now, but once this area is defined, then we can manufacture the jig required to assemble the fuselage within. While from the outside, progress may appear pedestrian, it is important to get everything to fit together on paper, as making mistakes in jigs or incorrect fuselage sections can soon become a costly excercise.

Clearly this will be a new-build, but in its build we will be preserving the original construction methods used by Shorts for this type, using the correct materials, and processes too. Even the jig for the fuselage will emulate the same shape and principals. There are a substantial amount of original parts that will be fitted to the forward fuselage: Turret, flight deck equipment and controls, seats, radios, escape hatch, DV windows, etc. All of which were previously dispersed in collections, crash sites, or store rooms, so collecting them together into one accurately manufactured assembly, is surely the best way forward.

Originally Posted by Crabfat Loggie
As It me, or is there a serious missing link in our aviation heritage, that is that we are missing the fisrt of great heavies, the Short Stirling.

I am very aware of the gallant work of the Stirling Project http://www.stirlingproject.co.uk/ who are valiantly trying to rebuild part of a Stirling.

I think we should be going one better and trying to identify a downed(preferably ditched) variant that perhaps could be restored at least to museum condition.

From all of your reourcse has anyone got a clus on how I could start this research project?

Thanks

No the serious missing link is a satisfactory way of accessing drawings or at least knowing for sure what drawings exist [if any ]and this applies to all aircraft. You can dredge up any old wreck but you still need a set of drawings to work out how to re-make parts.

Graham

I think if there is a “recoverable” Stirling still out there then it forms the priority in saving the type from extinction, however that doesnt seem to be the case and instead a hybrid replica from drawings and restored/replicated wreckage seems the likely path.

I’m not sure the Stirling drawings survive in their entirety? I thought that was one of the problems facing the project?

However having purchased over 4000 drawings from a manufacturer of a WW2 type to support a restoration, I would disagree that access to drawings is better than finding a restorable wreck. Even if the wreck is beyond preservation, its intact structure is likely to form a better pattern for templates than thousands of drawings.

Manufacturers drawings are NOT drawn for one off cottage industry manufacturing by modern restorers or museums, and quite often leave fabrication details to the factory floor to resolve with jigs etc, while it is obviously possible to dimension from the drawings, often a pattern item allows for a 3-D jig to be constructed around the piece and then raw materials to be re-engineered from dimensions taken directly from the pattern.

In most cases the pattern will yield some component/casting/fitting that is re-usable – particularly if the outcome is to be static. In the case of castings, a pattern example can simply be duplicated from a sand casting process where as a drawing requires a plug to be crafted to then form the sand cast.

If theres a choice between recovering a complete “wreck” and finding the drawings, I vote for the wreck – smiles

Regards

Mark Pilkington

As It me, or is there a serious missing link in our aviation heritage, that is that we are missing the fisrt of great heavies, the Short Stirling.

I am very aware of the gallant work of the Stirling Project http://www.stirlingproject.co.uk/ who are valiantly trying to rebuild part of a Stirling.

I think we should be going one better and trying to identify a downed(preferably ditched) variant that perhaps could be restored at least to museum condition.

From all of your reourcse has anyone got a clus on how I could start this research project?

Thanks

No the serious missing link is a satisfactory way of accessing drawings or at least knowing for sure what drawings exist [if any ]and this applies to all aircraft. You can dredge up any old wreck but you still need a set of drawings to work out how to re-make parts.

Graham

Without stretching the religious analagy too far, I suspect this would be considered a ‘heretical opinion’ by many involved in restoration! I thought that keeping as much originality in the aircraft (or any item under resoration) is of vital importance, otherwise you might as well just go for a straight forward new build copy of an original?
DS

Of course we’re getting dangerously close to the the “data plate” rebuild issue. 😀
I’m sur more than a few Spitfires now flying have sacrificed much of their original structure (as Mondariz says…sheet metal and rivets) for the sake of airworthyness.
Few here seem to have a problem with that, so let’s hope that wanting to preserve a few bits of otherwise unrecognizeable bits of metal would not impede a program to build a reverse engineered (or something similar) complete Stirling.

I agree with nearly everything Mark has written…(especially about the money spent on the Vulcan instead of something that would be a lasting contribution to UK aviation history and as a de facto memorial for BC crews…) and if a credible program is ever launched, I’d be pleased to make a contribution.

LJ899 broke in two when the aircraft ditched in a swedish lake killing members of the Border guards and the tail section came to rest on the side of the lake whilst the rest is still on the lake bed?.Well I`ve just been looking at a photo of the the same stirling from nose to half way along the fuselage pulled up on the side of the lake either during or shortly after the war !!!!!!!!!!!!don`t kow what`s left down on the lake bed …but not alot.

Not the way I would put it.

There is a well known Stirling underwater, and whilst IIRC its in fresh water, its very deep – again IIRC 400m plus down – I dont think its been properly surveyed and even if it were, the cost of a recovery operation would be enormous I’m sure. The Stirling is helluva beast to bring up intact from that kind of depth.

Never say never however.

The DH.9 at DX is proof of that – ie no-one knew of its /their existence. The Trenton Halibag shows it can be done. The 109E in Canada shows that these things can even be made airworthy.

One of the most exciting aspects of our hobby for me is learning of new discoveries year on year…

TT

I thought Stirling LJ899 might have been the “well known Stirling underwater mentioned above” ?

“Stirling LJ899 of 190 Sqdn made a forced landing on the lake Store Røgden on the border to Sweden. Of the 18 paratroopers onboard, four drowned.”

http://ktsorens.tihlde.org/flyvrak/sorkedalen.html

Special Projects Group diving officer Peter Cornish, of
1 Mauria Gardens, Cheshunt, Herts, is trying to locate the
crew of the Short Stirling Mk IV which now lies in 90ft of
water in Sweden’s Lake Rydafors. The aircraft, LJ899,
belonged to No 190 Sqn and ditched in the lake while ferrying
elements of the First Airborne Division to Oslo on May
10, 1945. The crew comprised: captain, FO A. Atkinson
(RAF No 153846); navigator, Sgt K. H. Rundle; bomb aimer,
FO W. S. Long (No 165358); wireless operator, FO H. Ashton
(No 172733); flight engineer, Sgt W. Wright; air gunner,
Sgt W. Flynn. Mr Cornish’s group hopes, using information
supplied by the crew, to locate, recover and restore this
aircraft.

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1975/1975%20-%202085.html

Short Stirling MKIV

Två dagar efter krigsslutet skulle en glimt av kriget återigen komma till Värmland, närmare bestämt till Röjdåfors nära gränsen till Norge. Two days after the war was a glimpse of the war once again come to Värmland, specifically cleared to Åfors near the border with Norway. Tidigt på morgonen den 10 maj flög en Stirling på låg höjd över en tullstationen. Vädret var dåligt med dimma och regn. Early on the morning of May 10 was flying a Stirling at low altitude over a customs station. The weather was bad with fog and rain. Flygföraren F/O Atkinson svängde runt några varv för att slutligen flyga ut över vattnet på mycket låg höjd. Flygplanet kolliderade därvid med en tall vid strandkanten och kraschade i vattenbrynet. Airplane Driver F / O Atkinson swung around a few laps to finally fly out over the water at very low altitude. The airplane collided with a pine-taking at the shore and crashed into the water. Flygkroppen bröts av och fyra soldater ombord kastades ut. The fuselage was broken and four soldiers on board were thrown out. Denna händelse var ett påtagligt tecken på befrielsen av Norge som just pågick. This event was a tangible sign of the liberation of Norway, who has just ran. Flygplanet, en Short Stirling MkIV LJ899 från 190 Squadron, hade avdelats för att transportera trupper ur 1st Airborne Division till Norge. The aircraft, a Short Stirling LJ899 MKIV from 190 Squadron, was assigned to transport the troops from the 1st Airborne Division in Norway. I det dåliga vädret kunde man inte hitta Gardermoen, som var den tilltänkta landningsplatsen. In bad weather you could not find Gardermoen, which was the intended landing site. Under försöken kom man in över Sverige. During the trials it was over in Sweden. Militär personal tog hand om besättningen och de överlevande soldaterna, varav två skadats och förts till sjukhus. Military personnel took care of the crew and the surviving soldiers, two injured and taken to hospital. Två dagar senare sändes de tolv oskadade soldaterna från 7th Battalion vid The King`s Own Scottish Borderes, under befäl av major Hart, över till Norge landvägen. Two days later sent the Twelve uninjured soldiers from 7th Battalion of The King `s Own Scottish Borders, under the command of Major Hart, of Norway to the land. De fyra soldater som drunknat begravdes i Torsby. The four soldiers who drowned were buried in Torsby. Deras gravar flyttades senare till Göteborg/Kviberg. Flygplanet skrotades på plats genom att sprängas sönder i mindre delar genom försorg av personal från F7 Såtenäs. Their graves were later moved to Gothenburg / Kviberg. The aircraft was scrapped on site by rupturing into smaller parts by the staff of the Secretariat of the Q7 seats.

FLYING FORTRESS FALLEN IN cleared AFORS

På torsdagsmorgonen störtade ett engelskt fyrmotorigt plan i sjön Röjden strax intill Norsk-Svenska gränsen vid Röjdåfors. On Thursday morning, crashed on an English-range plan of the lake Röjder nearby Norwegian-Swedish border at Åfors cleared. Wermlandstidningens korrespondent såg från den Norska sidan planet irrade omkring tydligen i avsikt att nödlanda. Wermlands newspaper correspondent saw from the Norwegian side plane wandered around, apparently with the intention to make an emergency landing. Av någon anledning tystnade motorerna och planet seglade från Nordväst snett över sjön. For some reason, stopped engines and plane flying from north-west angle of the lake. Mitt för Röjdåfors tullstation törnade planet mot en stor tall. Middle of grubbed Åfors duty station bumped the plane against a large pine tree. Vid den fruktansvärda kollisionen slets ena vingen bort och tallen klipptes av som om den varit en tändsticka. At the terrible collision tore off one wing and pine were cut off as if it were a match. Efter kollisionen störtade det sönderslagna planet i sjön strax intill land. After the collision crashed the broken plane in the lake next to the country.

Några dagar senare i NWT. A few days later in the NWT.

Fyra st. Four pc. dog varav en inte hittades förrän 6 dagar senare efter intensiva dragningar, militären var snabbt på plats och bestämde att planet var för illa tilltygat för att bärga så dom skrotade på det stället med dynamit. died, including one not found until 6 days later after intense spins, the military was quick to spot and decided that the plane was mauled to recover so they scrapped it in place with dynamite. De brittiska flygarna jordfästes onsdagen den 16 maj 1945 vid Fryksändes kyrkogård i Torsby. The British pilots buried on Wednesday, May 16, 1945 at Fryksås cemetery in Torsby.

Kan tilläggas att rubriken på första sidan var felaktigt det var inte en ”flygande fästning” som är ett Amerikanska bombflygplan med beteckning B-17, utan en Engelsk Short Stirling MkIV med nummer LJ899. Can be added to the heading on the front page was wrong it was not a “flying fortress”, which is an American bomber with the designation B-17, but a British Short Stirling LJ899 MKIV with numbers.

Med dom uppgifterna enligt ovan så bestämde vi inom VUEP att åka till Röjdåfors och undersöka saken närmare. With those data as described above so we decided in VUEP going to cleared Åfors and investigate further. Vi åkte början av juli månad 2003 mot Röjdåfors, denna dag så spöregnade det och vi fick en liten känsla av hur dålig sikten bör ha varit den ödesdigra dagen 10 maj 1945. Vi kom fram till sjön Röjden och stannade vid ett rött skjul och som visade sej vara ett omklädningsrum för badande. We went the beginning of July 2003 against cleared Åfors, on this day so DOWNPOUR it and we got a little sense of how bad the visibility should have been the fateful day, May 10, 1945. We arrived at the lake cleared and stopped at a red shed and showed himself to be a changing room for bathers. Som sagt så spöregnade det när vi kom till platsen och vi satt en bra stund i bilen innan regnet upphörde. Vi rekade platsen och hittade snart den avklippta toppen på en tall. As I have said so DOWNPOUR it when we arrived and we sat a while in the car before the rain stopped. We rekade site and soon found it cut the tip of a pine tree. Vi undersökte tallen och såg spår av aluminumrester som satt djupt i stammen och då förstod vi att vi var på rätt plats. We investigated the pine and saw traces of aluminumrester which sat deep in the trunk and then we understood that we were in the right place. Johan, Janne och Anders undersökte botten med dykutrustnuing och fann några mindre plåtrester från Short Stirlingen. John, Janne and Anders looked at the bottom of dykutrustnuing and found some small metal residues from the Short Stirling. Total dyktid var cirka 1 timme, djupet på sjön Röjden var mellan 2-3 meter och med cirka 1 meters sikt. Total dive time was about 1 hour, the depth of the lake Röjder was between 2-3 meters, with approximately 1-meter run. Dan som inte kunde dyka pga förkylning gick efter stranden och letade föremål från flygplanet. Dan who could not dive due to colds went after the beach and were looking objects from the aircraft. Några småfynd gjordes bl a en bakelitknapp som ser ut att vara till en instrumentpanel, men vi var osäkra om det tillhörde planet. Some småfynd were made including a Bakelite button that looks like a dashboard, but we were uncertain whether it belonged to the plane.

Anders har forskat mer om planets öde i Röjdåfors och hittade några intressanta uppgifter: Anders has been researching more about the planet’s fate in cleared Åfors and found some interesting information:

Ett antal trupptransportplan från squardon 190 av typen Short Stirling MkIV avgick från flygplatsen Great Dunmow den 10 maj 1945 med destination Gardermoen i Norge som var byggt av Tyskarna under kriget. A number of troop transport planes from squardon 190 of the type Short Stirling MKIV resigned from the airport, Great Dunmow May 10th 1945 with destination Gardermoen in Norway, which was built by the Germans during the war. Operationen gick under beteckning ”Operation Doomsday”. The operation went under the name “Operation Doomsday”. Vi vet att den 10 maj 1945 var det väldigt dåligt väder med både dimma och regn. We know, on 10 May 1945, the very bad weather with both fog and rain. En signalapparat med namn ”Eureka-transmitter” sänder ut signaler till ankommande flyg, men i det dåliga vädret som rådde den 10 maj kunde inte en klar signal sändas ut pg a dimman och regnet. A signal device with the name “Eureka transmitter” sends out signals to arriving flights, but in the bad weather which prevailed May 10 could not be a clear signal sent pg a fog and rain. Detta medförde att några flygplan pg a den rådande sikten inte kunde se marken från hög höjd, samtidigt som man förgäves försökte att fånga signalen från Gardermoen. Planen fick alltså flyga på låg höjd för att kunna orientera sig efter terrängen. This meant that no aircraft pg a prevailing visibility could not see the ground from high altitude, while vainly trying to catch the signal from Gardermoen. The plan was then flying at low altitude in order to orient themselves for terrain. Jag både tror och gissar att LJ899 efter många försök att hitta flygplatsen Gardermoen snart hade slut på bränsle och var tvungen nödlanda. I believe and guess LJ899 after many attempts to find airport Gardermoen was soon out of fuel and had an emergency landing. Då fick piloten syn på sjön Röjden och bestämde att göra nödlandning där. When was the pilot’s view on the lake cleared and decided to make an emergency landing there. Det skulle säkert ha lyckas om inte planets ena vinge träffat tallen och slagit runt och fick till följd att fyra soldater fick sätta livet till. It would certainly be successful unless the plane’s wing hit one pine tree and beaten around and got the result that four soldiers died.

Ett annan Short Stirling MKIV med beteckning LK297 som avgick i samma squadron kraschade och började senare brinnna. Another Short Stirling MKIV with name LK297 who resigned in the same Squadron crashed and later began to burn. Planet rapporterades som saknad och upptäcktes först den 21 juni 1945 en bit från Gardermoen. The plane was reported as missing and was first discovered June 21, 1945 a piece from Gardermoen. Alla i besättning och samtliga soldater dog vid kraschen. All of the crew and all the soldiers died in the crash. [ läs mer om LK297 ] [Read more about the LK297]

Ytterliggare 14 st flygplan som ingick i ”Operation Doomsday” och avgick från flygplatsen Shepherds Grove hade även de svårigheter att hitta Gardermoen. Further 14 pcs aircraft that were part of “Operation Doomsday” and resigned from the airport Shepherds Grove was also the difficulty of finding Gardermoen. 13 st. 13 pcs. plan vände och flög tillbaka till hemmabasen men det sista planet kom aldrig hem. plane turned and flew back to home base but the last plane never came home. Flygplanet en Short Stirling MkIV med beteckning LK147 störtade en kilometer utanför Gardemoen. Short Stirling aircraft one MKIV with name LK147 crashed a mile off the Gardermoen. [ läs mer om LK147 ] [Read more about the LK147]

Genom olika intervjuer med folk som minns händelsen så ska Stirlingen i Röjdåfors ha sprängts sönder efter olyckan av militären. Skrotdelar från planet blev bortforslad med lastbilar till Torsby järnvägsstation och vidare till flygbasen Såtenäs. Någon gång i mitten av 1970 talet gjorde svensk militär en grundlig städning efter resterna av Short Stirlingen i samband med att sjön Röjden var torrlagd och ammunition upptäckts. Through various interviews with people who remember the incident so as to Stirling in cleared Åfors be blown to pieces after the accident by the military. Scrap parts from the plane were taken away by trucks to Torsby railway station and on to the air base Såtenäs. Sometime in the mid-1970s Swedish military did a thorough cleaning after the remains of the Short Stirling when the lake was dry Röjder total and ammunition discovered.

Anders Ståhl för VUEP 2004-01-05 [ Maila Anders ] Anders Ståhl for VUEP 2004-01-05 [Mailänder]

http://hem.bredband.net/vue/projekt_flygplan_shortstirling.htm

From the dive report above, it seems the lake is only 3 metres deep, and the wreck was blown up with dynamite some time after it ditched after hitting a pine tree on approach, killing 4 occupants – ie “scrapped in place” and the remains were apparantly later fully recovered when the lake was dry in the mid 1970s?

So that still leaves the question – where is the well known wreck in a deep lake mentioned above, and what survives?

Regards

Mark Pilkington