Short Stirling Identity

Conclusive, I’d say. BB212 it is. I have some updating to do!

PM sent with some fuller thoughts for your interest.

Adrian – this text says that following the crash at Topcliffe in Sept 42- she was repaired.

http://www.yorkshire-aircraft.co.uk/aircraft/yorkshire/york42/bb212.html

This citation has it down as BB212 in March 43

http://en.ww2awards.com/person/36436

and here
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nbpennfi/penn8b2Carlon_TE.htm

Halifax BB212 of No.405 Squadron (LQ-U) was airborne from Topcliffe, 1903 hours, 11 March 1943. Shot down by an Me.110 from 17,000 feet, prior to reaching the target. Sergeant R. Moore killed (buried in the Durnbach War Cemetery); Flight Sergeant G.T. Chretien, DFM, RCAF and Flight Sergeant T.E. Carlon, DFM, RCAF, both prisoners of war; Sergeant A.C.Collin, RCAF, POW; P/O J.S.Probert, RCAF, POW; Sergeant H.G.Reynolds, RCAF, POW, Sergeant A.E. Danes, RCAF, POW.

Directorate of History and Heritage file 181.001.D.24 has his “Loss Bomber Aircraft” questionnaire compiled from interrogation of 11 May 1945. He stated he had flown 15 sorties. Although the account suggests a “Jazz Music” attack from below, that particular weapon was not used at this date. For a comparative account see entry for Sergeant George T. Chretien, DFM.

March 11th, 1943 – 10.00 p.m. – Clear night, full moon. Target Stuttgart. Thirty minutes from target passed over lights, probably aerodrome. Shortly after tail gunner saw one Me.110. Pilot turned into the Me.110. Me.110 circled aircraft, gunners unable to get in a shot. Messerschmitt directly below aircraft, out of range for tail and nose gunners. First burst came through floor – second, third and fourth from same position. Navigator wounded – hydraulics unserviceable. One intercom unserviceable. Unable to release bombs. Nose and tail gunners firing at Me.110. Mid-Upper gunner – no turret, no guns, giving directions to pilot, observed the Me.110 through blister on floor. Me.110 one engine on fire, still attacking. We are out of control, pilot orders to bale out. Myself first. Landed near Heidleberg – baled out at 6-7,000 feet. Heard that Me.110 also crashed in same vicinity. Out of port hatch, thrown clear of aircraft.

SOURCE: Air Force Association of Canada website & Hugh Halliday (July 30, 2010).

What are your thoughts ?

Brian,

Unfortunately my data relates only to the aircraft and doesn’t list the crew, so I can’t help. I do note that the data for the four 405 Sqn losses that night on the lostaircraft database is a bit vague with the crew details – but they do have full crew lists, which I don’t. Assuming my data, which is supposedly a digest of the RCAF records held in Canada, is correct, I am left wondering if BB212 wasn’t written off the previous September, but perhaps left as a hangar queen and put back into service for a maximum effort raid or some such. I’m afraid I don’t have the means to find out.

Adrian – thank you.

Different sources – So there are two references with different aircraft!

The key as to which one is correct may lie with the aircraft that the deceased air gunner Sergeant Robert Moore was on.

Which aircraft was Chretien listed as being on in your data ?

According to my sources, BB212 was indeed a 405 Sqn aircraft, but was written off after overshooting at Topcliffe and colliding with Wellington BJ887 on 11 September 1942. 405’s losses on the night in question were those I listed.

Thanks to another thread – from this database we have an identity for the Halifax!

http://www.lostaircraft.com/database.php?e=8964&mode=viewentry#

Halifax Mk2 BB212 LQ-U of 405 Squadron RCAF – lost on the night of 11th/12th March 1943 in the correct location at Schonau.

Halifax Mk.1 = HP.57. Of course.

Like you, I wonder. Given that there were few differences in most of the airframe between the HP.57 and the HP.59 Halifax Mk.II, I wonder how many of the parts for the early Mk.IIs may have been already produced with a ’57’ stamp before the decision to change type number was taken? They probably wouldn’t have gone to the bother of re-stamping them. They may even have been produced with the earlier part number because the drawing hadn’t changed. If it is one of the Canadian machines I mentioned, this line of reasoning might suggest it was most likely W7803. If I read Air Britain’s Halifax File correctly, no Halifax Mk.Is were lost over Germany on the date in question. Right now, I don’t have the time to check the rest of the Mk.IIs…

Thank you Lazy8.

Each one has a story and was a loss in its own right!

There is a bit of iron/bomb so perhaps this one was shot down on her way to the target.

The 57 part number if for the Halifax Mk1.

I am not sure how religiously they changed part numbers for common parts that were used in later variants ?

Four Canadian Halifaxes were lost on the night of 12 March 1943. All of them on a raid to Stuttgart – about 100km away, so not beyond possible for a damaged aircraft. They were:
405 Sqn
Halifax B.Mk.II
W7803(Missing over Stuttgart on 12 March 1943)
BB250(Lost over Stuttgart on 12 March 1943)
Halifax B/G.R. Mk. II
DT745(Missing over Stuttgart on 12 March 1943)

408Sqn
Halifax B/G.R. Mk. II
HR656(Lost over Stuttgart on 12 March 1943)

Thanks for the update Brian

Okay Gents the parts got here during the week but I was in France on business.

I have an original newspaper cutting that refers to the downing of British Bomber.

The parts are mainly airframe with a bit of bomb, perspex and engine etc.

You can clearly see Night black and British internal green paint…

The joining piece between rib and stringer was intact on one piece and the part number is ……. 57.

So Halifax and not Stirling.

Sorry to make you go through Chorley and other sources again – any chance of an ident on a Halifax lost at Schonau near Heidelberg on the 12th of March ? ( see date in article).

Wokka Bov – will wait for baited breath for parts to arrive….

Brian,
Having a quick look at Chorley, nothing jumps out but be prepared for Lanc, Halifax or even Fortress!

That’s great thanks, much appreciated

John

Thank you Chaps.

John when I get them – I will see what they are and send some pics if Stirling.

I’ve just been thumbing through my Bomber Command War Diaries too and March 15th doesn’t look too promising in any year for a Stirling loss.

My first question would be with regard to the date; why so precise with the day but with the year unknown? I’m not questioning the accuracy but it does seem a little unusual.

Stirlings were taken off operations to Germany before D-Day, maybe even March 1944, and I’m not sure when Stirlings first bombed Germany; of course it may not be a Stirling at all.

Hi Brian

Would be interested to see what you get for reference purposes as parts may be useful to us to measure up etc for our project. Let me know what Pt nos you find and if they are Stirling I can have a good go at identifying them

regards

John

A quick scan through the Bomber Command War Diaries reveals the following losses:

14/15 Mar 41: Gelsenkirchen – 1 x Wellington.
14/16 Mar 42: – No losses.
16 Mar 43: Paderborn – 1 x Mosquito.
15/16 Mar 44: Stuttgart – 27 x Lancaster, 10 x Halifax.
14/15 Mar 45: Lutzkendorf – 18 x Lancaster.
14/15 Mar 45: Homberg – 2 x Halifax.
15/16 Mar 45: Hagen – 6 x Lancaster, 4 x Halifax.
15/16 Mar 45: Misburg – 4 x Lancaster

I have not x-ref’d to Chorley for crash sites but if I get time we may be able to narrow this down.

Bob

Brian,

They are a good point of reference before cross referencing. I’m up to Vol 9 collected over the years. Air Britain series are helpful, theres nothing like the original documents but even they can confuse!

Bob

Thanks Bob – I am waiting for some parts to arrive from Germany – definitely British and definitely bomber.

The local who found them said that he has a paper from the time that said it was a Stirling. I was hoping for an easy id.

When the parts arrive I will check for part numbers to see if we can id it any further in terms of aircraft.

I was looking at a selection of Chorley books last week thinking that it would be a useful source…..Maybe next time