Shorts STARBURST

Jack E. Hammond asked:

>Do you have confirmation of that statement other than the internet? Internet sources are giving three types of laser guidance. Do you have access to a Jane’s Weapons, etc.

The info came from a reliable non-internet source.

Best regards,

Mercurius Cantabrigiensis

Jackehammond, check pms.

Starburst combined the Javelin missile and Starsteak-style laser beam-riding guidance.

Mercurius Cantabrigiensis

Dear Member,

Do you have confirmation of that statement other than the internet? Internet sources are giving three types of laser guidance. Do you have access to a Jane’s Weapons, etc????

Jack E. Hammond

Starburst combined the Javelin missile and Starsteak-style laser beam-riding guidance.

Mercurius Cantabrigiensis

Dear Mr. Hammond,

Could you show us those official descriptions, please? I’m very curious!
BTW, I don’t have any idea why the Blowpipe uses SACLOS first, then MCLOS. SACLOS is more accurate and the operator has less work to do than MCLOS!
:confused:

Dear Member,

I am scanning them for an internet article on another forum. I will post a link when I post the article.

To your second question. The main problem with all CLOS missiles (air to air, ground to air, air to ground and ground to ground) is minimum range. The operator has to first acquire the missile in flight and then line it up to guide it. This disadvantage was demonstrated by the famous SAGGER antitank missile. It had a great maximum range but a terrible minimum range. SACLOS is best for guidance all the way. It just requires more complexity, etc. The reason is the unit that tracks the flare on the end of the missile has to first be set at wide angle and then zoom down as the distance between the launch post and the missile increase. If there is no zoom down the launch post tracker might loose the missile, plus it can be decoyed by flares (the smallest SACLOS missile the 600 meter French ERYX keeps the cost down by having two digitial like cameras that pick up the IR laser becon in the back of the missiles body — one set wide that acquires and centers the missile and then another one that is narrow to track it the rest of the 25 meters to 600 meters, but this is not possible with long range SACLOS missiles as you would need five to seven more fixed focal length CDD cameras) So to keep cost and complexity of the unit down SHORT engineers fitted the firing post of the BLOWPIPE with one fixed length unit to acquire and center the missile after launch. Also, the British military and SHORT engineers thought that having CLOS for the guidance after SACLOS has acquired and center the missile in flight would make it less likely it would be decoyed — ie and in this they are correct to an extent.

With the experience of the Falkands and Afghanistan (where the Blowpipe failed horribly) SHORT realized that it was just to much work by the gunner to keep the sight centered on the target and use the thumb-joystick to guide the missile to the cross hairs center. So they re-engineered the firing post to where the missile is guided SACLOS all the way resulting in the JAVELIN. This was made possible by technological advances since the first BLOWPIPE entered service.

Jack E. Hammond

BTW> The original concept for a manportable SAM for the US Army that resulted in the REDEYE was suppose to be a CLOS that was wired guided!!!!!

Dear Mr. Hammond,

Could you show us those official descriptions, please? I’m very curious!
BTW, I don’t have any idea why the Blowpipe uses SACLOS first, then MCLOS. SACLOS is more accurate and the operator has less work to do than MCLOS!
:confused:

Fourth: AFAIK, Blowpipe has SACLOS via radio (but there is MCLOS for backup), Javelin (SAM) has SACLOS with laser-link and Starburst and Starstreak has laser-beam riding guidance.

Dear Member,

I have the official description of the Blowpipe, Javelin and Starstreak. The stuff their defense attaches have. The Blowpipe has SACLOS to initial acquire the missile then the operator takes over with CLOS. The Javelin has complete all the way SACLOS. Both the Blowpipe and Javelin use radio command link. The Starstreak has laser-beam riding. The Starburst again is a mystery to me, but I think it just replaces the radio command link with a laser command link. The search continues. I think I will try and find the email of the public affairs officer who took over SHORT.

Finally, both Blowpipe and Javelin allow the SACLOS feature to be shut off for very short range and very low altitude engagements — ie or the missile would fly into the ground (ie they fire it elevated then bring it down).

Jack E. Hammond

I’ve just read this thread, and I have to react to it.

First: There are at least 4 ways to use laser as a missile guidance method. These are semi-active laser homing (e.g.:Paveway bombs), laser beam-riding (RBS-70, Vikhr), SACLOS or ACLOS with laser command link (Kornet) and finally laser-radar or ladar (LOCAAS).

Second: The beam-rider method (doesn’t matter if it is radio or laser) uses the electromagnetic beam to create a “tunnel”, where the missile flies to the target. The guidance computer is on the board of the missile, and it calculates the error between the missile’s longitudinal axis and the line-of-sight (which is the center of the beam), then feed data to the autopilot, where steering command are generated. And this is the difference between beam-riding and CLOS – the latter’s guidance computer is on the board of the launcher, the error signal is measured by a goniometer, then commands are generated, then send via radio-, or laser-beam to the missile. In summary the CLOS method has a cheaper and less complicated missile, but a complex launcher, while the beam-rider missile is more complex because of the on-board guidance computer, but has a simpler launcher.
The CLOS systems are more vulnerable to active jamming devices (e.g.:Shtora-1), than beam-riding systems (which are nearly unjammable).

Third: The Kornet missile uses SACLOS with laser-link as I’ve said before. I know this, because I’ve read a study (read the Shtora-1 trials) on the vulnerability of the russian T-80U and T-90 tanks to anti-tank weapons. One tank was fitted with Shtora-1, which jammed the missile, and this is impossible with beam-rider method, thus Kornet has SACLOS guidance!

Fourth: AFAIK, Blowpipe has SACLOS via radio (but there is MCLOS for backup), Javelin (SAM) has SACLOS with laser-link and Starburst and Starstreak has laser-beam riding guidance.

Fifth: RBS-70 has 4 receiver at the missile’s end, but I think this is because of the larger field-of-view of the detector. Don’t forget: there are 2 line-shaped beams (one is horizontal, and the other is vertical) continously scanning with a known frequency, so the missile has to synchronise to them before it starts. Then only one detector is enough to measure the deviation, so the three more detectors are just improving the FOV.

Sixth and last: Beam-rider and CLOS missiles has very same trajectories during target-chasing, and sometimes the methods are used alternatively (first CLOS, then beam-riding to the target).

Sorry for any mistake I made, I hope, I was understandable!

Dear Member,

There are ways around the problem for a beam rider without going to the RBS-70 solution (the exhaust is out the sides like the TOW leaving the back for the laser detectors). Ford-Aerospace developed the solution with its candidate for the REDEYE replacement (which the STINGER won): ie the laser beam is transmitted in a grid with each grid encodes so one (instead of four like the RBS-70) laser detector can obtain the beam (which is usually fitted to one of the rear fins) and for example “C3” grid is center no stearing changes are made by the missiles guidance computer, but if it detects “C4” the computer knows to stear the missile up one grid. If it is “D4” it knows up and over the left one grid. This is what the ADATS uses today — ie although I simplified the description to the extreme.

I am pretty sure that the STARBURST is a SACLOS with a laser comand link. To convert the missile itself to a laser beam riding would require way to much engineering change to the missile and its electronics. But I am trying to make sure. There are enough webpages and articles today where the facts are not checked. I discovered that trying to affirm my memory where I was given three types of laser guidance for the STARBURST by three different sources!!!!

Jack E. Hammond

True. Even company brochures are often fuzzy about the critical details, but not because of keeping something “secret”, but because the stuff is written by PR departments, which worry more about the layout than technically correct and useful discriptions.

Looking at true laser beam-riders (ADATS, RBS-70, 9M133), they always employ rather big optics to produce a wide laser beam.

One says it is laser-beam riding and the other states it is laser-homing. I am not for sure, but I thought I read in an IDR article that the STARBURST replaced the radio command link with a laser command link to make it unjammable. Does anyone have the exact information on this subject? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

As far as I know there are two types of laser guided missile methods in use. One is SALH or Semi Active Laser Homing where the laser beam lases the target and the missile is launched at the target and homes in on the reflected laser energy. Effected by smoke and visibility conditions it is also effected by the colour the target is painted and the material the target is made of as to the effective range the missiles seeker can get a good lock to launch from. The examples I know of are all Russian or Soviet like the AS-10 Karen and the AS-14 Kedge model but there are likely plenty of western models you know of.
The other method is laser beam riding where the missile still carries a laser seeker but in this case the seeker looks back towards the launcher rather than at the target. Because the missile is looking directly at the laser source the laser source can be 5 orders of magnitude less powerful than one that has to reach the target and reflect all the way back to the missiles seeker to get an initial lock. The colour of the target is no longer relevant and the low power of the laser makes it harder to detect. Basically the laser forms a sort of grid matrix which the missile aquires just after launch and positions itself within. The Vikhr for example will fly 5m above the line of sight to avoid hitting objects on the ground and will only dive down to line of sight when it is within 1km of the target. At that range the warhead is also armed.

I have heard that the Starstreak uses a grid based laser field to guide the the 3 terminal missile darts to the target independantly to increase kill probability. The SOSNA-R uses similar guidance but a conventional warhead as far as I know to hit the target.

You make my head swirl!

And it seems one has to be more precise when talking to you … 😉

So you put your crosshair on the target, and an IR tracker looks for the signature of the sustainer. The idea is to keep the angular error between the crosshair-line-of-sight and the IR signature at zero. The neccessary maneuvers to achieve that is transmitted to the missile by a laser, which is aiming at the IR signature.

Thought that’s clear when I wrote riding (riding the command beam), since the basic missile was unchanged, just a laser detector instead of the antenna.
A true laser beam rider like the RBS-70 needs a different configuration, both for the missile and the launcher.

Dear Member,

There are ways around the problem for a beam rider without going to the RBS-70 solution (the exhaust is out the sides like the TOW leaving the back for the laser detectors). Ford-Aerospace developed the solution with its candidate for the REDEYE replacement (which the STINGER won): ie the laser beam is transmitted in a grid with each grid encodes so one (instead of four like the RBS-70) laser detector can obtain the beam (which is usually fitted to one of the rear fins) and for example “C3” grid is center no stearing changes are made by the missiles guidance computer, but if it detects “C4” the computer knows to stear the missile up one grid. If it is “D4” it knows up and over the left one grid. This is what the ADATS uses today — ie although I simplified the description to the extreme.

I am pretty sure that the STARBURST is a SACLOS with a laser comand link. To convert the missile itself to a laser beam riding would require way to much engineering change to the missile and its electronics. But I am trying to make sure. There are enough webpages and articles today where the facts are not checked. I discovered that trying to affirm my memory where I was given three types of laser guidance for the STARBURST by three different sources!!!!

Jack E. Hammond

You make my head swirl!

And it seems one has to be more precise when talking to you … 😉

So you put your crosshair on the target, and an IR tracker looks for the signature of the sustainer. The idea is to keep the angular error between the crosshair-line-of-sight and the IR signature at zero. The neccessary maneuvers to achieve that is transmitted to the missile by a laser, which is aiming at the IR signature.

Thought that’s clear when I wrote riding (riding the command beam), since the basic missile was unchanged, just a laser detector instead of the antenna.
A true laser beam rider like the RBS-70 needs a different configuration, both for the missile and the launcher.

I think one can deduce the answer from the development sequence.
# Blowpipe was controlled by the operator via a thumbstick like a R/C model, transmission via radio.
# Javelin replaced the thumbstick controll with a flare overlay SACLOS system, transmission via radio.
# Starburst didn’t change the principle layout of the missile, but the overlay SACLOS link was changed from radio to laser.

So it’s riding, not homing. And you still had a hard time with high angular velocities, objects in your line-of-view, and metreologic conditions other than nice blue sky.

Dear Member,

Thanks for the reply. But an SACLOS laser command link is a different animal from laser beam riding. For example the SHORT SEACAT uses a CLOS radio command link, the early US Navy Terrier missiles used radio beam riding. It is sort of like on a dark night a person having a roll tube to look through and a person at the end of a street with a narrow powerful flashlight and that person looking at the flash light and moving towards it (with missiles it is looking back) and as that person moves to either side they correct and move back to the center: ie that is beam riding. Or a person moving towards a light held by another person. As the person holding the light sees that the person moving towards him is moving off the center line he sends two blinks for move to the right or three blinks for move to the left: ie that is a command link.

Jack E. Hammond

I think one can deduce the answer from the development sequence.
# Blowpipe was controlled by the operator via a thumbstick like a R/C model, transmission via radio.
# Javelin replaced the thumbstick controll with a flare overlay SACLOS system, transmission via radio.
# Starburst didn’t change the principle layout of the missile, but the overlay SACLOS link was changed from radio to laser.

So it’s riding, not homing. And you still had a hard time with high angular velocities, objects in your line-of-view, and metreologic conditions other than nice blue sky.