Should India contract a foreign yard to build IAC…..

Asking for the ship on time means “give us our money back”, as it’s already late. 😀

Well, its obvious that the ship is not going to be delivered on-time…..the point was of course to call Russia’s hand……..fish or cut bait!:cool:

My personal belief is if I were India. I would tell Russia to provide the ship on time and at cost.

Asking for the ship on time means “give us our money back”, as it’s already late. 😀

Errr did you guys include 8 years 175 days the Indian Govt. needs to negotiate and sign the contract?

No?

Vikramaditya it is then..:D

Really, India has to take a lot of responsibility for this mess. As I would have told Russia to stick it from day one! Let’s not forget the negotiations were extremely long and detailed. Now for Russia to turn around and say on one hand………..Oh, we forgot to include a lot of the construction cost. Is quite frankly “not” believeable! Then to further insult India and say pay up or else!

My personal belief is if I were India. I would tell Russia to provide the ship on time and at cost. If, not provide a refund for the ship and the Mig-29K’s already delivered. Then if Russia refuses…………I would exclude Russia from all future Military Contracts and would be very vocal about it. Its really up to India……….it can tolerate such behavior or not. If, she let’s Russia get its way. This will just go on and on……….like giving into the demands of a “Blackmailer”!:eek:

Errr did you guys include 8 years 175 days the Indian Govt. needs to negotiate and sign the contract?

No?

Vikramaditya it is then..:D

Agree completely. Indonesia has actually bought 5 LPDs. The first, which converted to a hospital ship after the second entered service, to a slightly different design. All designed in Korea, & only the last two built in Indonesia, with considerable Korean assistance.

They’re modest ships: quite slow (16 knots), not big (11000 tons full load), diesel-powered, designed by a merchant yard to merchant standards at a merchant price. That’s not meant as criticism; in fact, I think the Indonesians have been very sensible, not wasting money on bells & whistles for ships which will serve out their lives in inter-island transport & occasional disaster relief, & the design would be a good choice for some other navies. They’re good enough to do the job, & IMO a better option, in the long run, than expensive to operate & maintain secondhand amphibious warships.

But having the ability to build such a ship, with help, does not qualify Indonesian yards to build a carrier, or even a full milspec LPD. Even for the same ship (& IMO it’d do nicely as an auxiliary for the IN), India would be better off either buying direct from Daesun or building it in India, preferably by contracting Daesun (a very efficient firm, AFAIK) to manage one of their yards.

South Korea does indeed present a very attractive option as does Italy with knowing how to do it, but if a contract went out, I wonder if South Korea would be the cheapest (something the Indians take highly in negotiations). I’m thinking that we might actually see a surprise like Indonesia offering to build the ship.

Indonesia have recently built four large LPD’s of their own and they have come into service with very few problems considering this is the first time they have built ships of this size.

I fully acknowledge South Korea and their efforts done with Dokdo, but again I stress my point, India doesn’t want to spend money but does want all the big toys!

As for Russia’s arm twisting, I can see that the delays are going to come to a head soon and India will either pull out and sue for compensation (good luck getting money out of them, they don’t have any) or take the ship as is and finish it off themselves (similar to what China has done with their carrier). It is rather interesting to see how the political field is being played here between the two countries, yet I can’t understand why India keeps going back for more (why does a woman stay with her husband if he beats her)?

Another thought just hit me, with the current economic problems, would the US jump in and and crack the Indian market with offering to build these vessels in the US or even have a US company set up in India and build them there, also throw in a but of funding under FMS in order to get the Indians to can the Gorshkov deal and buy US equipment? We know the US is keen as mustard to get a foot hold in India, who knows, perhaps some old USMC Harriers could find their way to the IN ranks as well!

The first two of the Indonesian “LPD’s” (which are built to very basic standards) were built in South Korea with Indonesia building the last two with South Korean Assistance. Indonesia is in no state to build Aircraft carriers for themselves or anyone else.

India would be better off building the carrier themselves then paying an indonesian yard which would need a lot of expansion work done to it. The Makassar class LPD’s are a quarter the displacement of India’s future aircraft carrier, half the length and they were built to commercial standards. Hardly comparable.

Edit 1: The options are basicly. South Korea, Japan, China, Italy, UK (if the yards werent building QE), Germany(?), France, US(i think all their yards are tied up) or India itself.

Edit 2: Spain would be an option but i think they might be tied up building Assault ships for the RAN and replenishment ships at the moment.

South Korea does indeed present a very attractive option as does Italy with knowing how to do it, but if a contract went out, I wonder if South Korea would be the cheapest (something the Indians take highly in negotiations). I’m thinking that we might actually see a surprise like Indonesia offering to build the ship.

Indonesia have recently built four large LPD’s of their own and they have come into service with very few problems considering this is the first time they have built ships of this size.

I fully acknowledge South Korea and their efforts done with Dokdo, but again I stress my point, India doesn’t want to spend money but does want all the big toys!

As for Russia’s arm twisting, I can see that the delays are going to come to a head soon and India will either pull out and sue for compensation (good luck getting money out of them, they don’t have any) or take the ship as is and finish it off themselves (similar to what China has done with their carrier). It is rather interesting to see how the political field is being played here between the two countries, yet I can’t understand why India keeps going back for more (why does a woman stay with her husband if he beats her)?

Another thought just hit me, with the current economic problems, would the US jump in and and crack the Indian market with offering to build these vessels in the US or even have a US company set up in India and build them there, also throw in a but of funding under FMS in order to get the Indians to can the Gorshkov deal and buy US equipment? We know the US is keen as mustard to get a foot hold in India, who knows, perhaps some old USMC Harriers could find their way to the IN ranks as well!

Yeah South Korea seems the obvious place.

Well, its hard to beat the South Korean’s for delivering ships at cost and on-time! Which, is the very thing India would need………:D

Yeah South Korea seems the obvious place.

The Italians have a tried & tested design in service, & have done the detailed work on a scaled-up version for India. I would expect them to have an advantage in building it. BTW, I wonder who owns the rights to that design.

I would assume India has the rights to the design of the IAC’s or they are the dumbest negotiators on the planet. As for Italy/Fincantieri they clearly know the design better than anybody else. Yet, that doesn’t necessarily translate into being the cheapest or quickist…………Regardless, India should put the bid out there and see what happens. At very least it would give her the power to do a little “arm twisting” of her own!:D

Its very likely that South Korea could beat the cost and timeline………..with the end result of India getting a brand new Carrier that would be identical to the two Indian built sister ships. (i.e. IAC)

The Italians have a tried & tested design in service, & have done the detailed work on a scaled-up version for India. I would expect them to have an advantage in building it. BTW, I wonder who owns the rights to that design.

Task Fincantieri to finish Vikram and after that order second IAC from them:diablo: Vikram will be in water in a couple of days anyway

Personally, I don’t see that happening. Really, considering the arm twisting going on by Russia. I am beginning to wonder if Russia doesn’t want the ship for itself or to re-sell to a third party like China. As it is just dumbfounding on how Russia is treating its best customer????? Regardless, either way it would take years to get the ex-Russian Carrier into service. On the other hand a new Carrier would offer a much better long-term solution……….

Probably. 😀

Cavour – 3 years & 3 days from contract to launch, began sea trials 2 years 5 months later. Commissioned 6 years 8 months from contract signing.

Vikramaditya – contract signed 20-01-2004, 4 years & 10 months ago. Supposedly launching, but will be re-launched later.

Vikrant (IAC) – first steel cut 11-04-2005, 3 years & 7 months ago. Launch date?

Its very likely that South Korea could beat the cost and timeline………..with the end result of India getting a brand new Carrier that would be identical to the two Indian built sister ships. (i.e. IAC)

Task Fincantieri to finish Vikram and after that order second IAC from them:diablo: Vikram will be in water in a couple of days anyway

Not a bad concept. Immediately fund a second IAC to be built at a foreign shipyard, and then make the 3rd a competitive bid between Indian and foreign builders.

You really do have to wonder if Fincantieri could complete a new carrier in the time that it takes the Russians to get the ex-Gorshkov sorted.

If the pric etag of the ex-Gorshkov is already up to $2.0 billion, just how much more would it take a build an optimal new-built carrier?

Let’s not forget that India has never constructed such a large and complex ship like the IAC. So, its possible (and some would say likely) that India could suffer delays constructing the first IAC. Which, inturn would delay the second even further! (i.e. 2020+) As a matter of fact considering the current global financial crisis. India could likely get a good deal from a Western (European) and Asian (South Korean) Ship Yard! 😀

Not a bad concept. Immediately fund a second IAC to be built at a foreign shipyard, and then make the 3rd a competitive bid between Indian and foreign builders.

You really do have to wonder if Fincantieri could complete a new carrier in the time that it takes the Russians to get the ex-Gorshkov sorted.

Probably. 😀

Cavour – 3 years & 3 days from contract to launch, began sea trials 2 years 5 months later. Commissioned 6 years 8 months from contract signing.

Vikramaditya – contract signed 20-01-2004, 4 years & 10 months ago. Supposedly launching, but will be re-launched later.

Vikrant (IAC) – first steel cut 11-04-2005, 3 years & 7 months ago. Launch date?

Considering the delay’s keep pushing back the delivery date for the ex-Gorshkov to something like 2013-2014. Should India just move on………..Really, to me India would be better off just completing the first IAC as soon as possible. To be followed by the third after that. In the short term considering the IAC is a complete design. Just contract out the second of the class to a foreign ship yard. Thereby, getting at least two new Carriers in a reasonable period.

Not a bad concept. Immediately fund a second IAC to be built at a foreign shipyard, and then make the 3rd a competitive bid between Indian and foreign builders.

You really do have to wonder if Fincantieri could complete a new carrier in the time that it takes the Russians to get the ex-Gorshkov sorted.

If the pric etag of the ex-Gorshkov is already up to $2.0 billion, just how much more would it take a build an optimal new-built carrier?