Signal Flare chute – Airworthy Spifires

Sorry not much use to you guys over here, but we did fit a very complete example of the discharger in our MKV BL370, now in New Orleans, but some one might take a photo if asked?

Cheers

Jules

Just been reading through all this – most interesting. Edgar seems to have a good point. The ‘recognition device’ is clearly a smallish bore (same as the flare cartridges – 1.5″ to 2.0″ bore) device whereas the parachute dispenser (downward firing) seems, from the picture in post 18 and other pictures I have seen, to be a large (4″ – 6″ diameter) cylinder. Obviously a small parachute pack needed more room hence the larger diameter delivery tube and large door (compared with the smaller fabric covered aperture in the rear upper fuselage). Very interesting.

Don’t confuse the flare tube with the “recognition device.” The “Automatic recognition device” was introduced, under mod 153, from 14-6-1940. From 1-7-1940, under mod 185, one “Parachute flare tube” was deleted. From 7-4-1941, under mod 235, the automatic recognition device was repositioned to fire upwards. The parachute flare tube, by its very name, seems to indicate that it was gravity-operated, in fact there’s a photo of them being loaded with dinghy packs, for ASR purposes.
The RAF Museum, in their MAC list of drawings, holds negatives of several pertinent drawings. MAC 852 is drawing 30064 11G “Arrangement of parachute flare container”; 853 is 30064 45G “Installation of recognition device”; 854 is 30064 48G “Assembly of recognition device”; 855 is 30064 53G ” (as Chumpy has said) “Installation of Plessey recognition device.” One of those installation drawings shows it firing down, the other is upwards. The reason for the change of position could be quite simple; firing up would be more visible, especially during a landing, and firing it down, into a field of standing corn, for example, wouldn’t sit well with the farmer, or a housewife on wartime bread rations.
Edgar

Worked it out..Now to find the MkV flare handle on Frame 10.

Sorry for a necro but has anyone got a photo of the flare gun mount on the seat?

vacb & Tom,
Nice photos thankyou both.

Going back to Toms question of the 16th re the covering of the upper flare shute. Fabric patch 6″ square, see the attached section from drg No 30064-Sht53 ‘Installation of Plessey Device’.

Though I dare say a bit of Daily Mirror would do!

Cheers, Chumpy.

That door is on BM597 and I think on EP120 as well. The lever to open it is on BL614 in the RAF Museum. If I had a couple of those broken units that have been shown, I could make one, but it wouldnt be cheap!

Bruce

Thanks to VACB we now have pics of top of the Flare Tube and the bottom end door and catch with the following pics.

Tom

Idling through photos of high ground wrecks found these pics of a Defiant site. Left hand bottom photo looks like a discharger. Long walk mind.
http://mysite.orange.co.uk/aircraftwreckage/defiant.htm

Here’s a picture of the two flare chutes from K5054 following it’s fatal accident.

Hi all,
Ian many thanks for the latest bit of info re the parachute flares, have seen odd bits from crash remains but not the whole set up. So interesting to hear how it operated.
Going back to the upward firing unit, attached is a shot showing the mounting structure on a MkXIV. (outer skin panel removed).

As you can see comprises a couple of ali formers, with a lengthwise former along side the top longeron. On the bottom of these a thicker guage plate, this drilled with a circular pattern of holes that hold the ‘dispenser unit’. Steel tubular ‘barrel’ about 2″ diameter, this I think has a seperate flange around the top edge that attaches it to the outer skin.

This particular set up located between Frms 17-18 on the port side, however it seems to move locations on other Mks. But pretty much the same basic layout.

Chumpy.

Twas nothing!!!

Needed a break from putting holes in frames in Cad.Trying to get all the frames ready to be cut out and I was missing the Lightening holes in F18..DOH!!!Sooo long night finishing it off.
More pics the better as you get a lot better idea of how it looks and how it works.Might get something out of this..:cool: Cheers for the measurements Ian.Fills in a lot of the mystery.
As you say never can learn enough with these planes.

Ian,

That’s the first I’ve seen of and existing Signal Discharger, many thanks for putting the photos up and scanning the info, I’m guessing it’s from the AP?

Chumpy, the irregular door forward of the area of patched skin (which is over the area where the rear flare door was located) is the forward flare door. On the inside there is a hefty hinge which fits to the outer edge of the door so that when the flare is released the door swings open and is held there by the slipstream until the aircraft has landed and the poor old Erk had to re-load it all again. There were many different variations on the door setup until they settled on this one as the flare tended to jam in the tube when the slipstream hit it during trials.

Also, until recently I had no idea that with these tubes fitted the elevator cables are re-routed around them via pulleys fitted to the lower longeron, you never stop learning when it comes to old aeroplanes 😉

I’ll try and get some more info on here soon regarding the fitting of both systems.

I like the neat CAD work QldSpitty……

Tom

Apologies for the dodgy quality. I’ll try and do better in daylight. This is out of an ex Battle of Britain Spit Mk1 N3221 which blew up over Pendoylan, Glamorgan on 6th Feb 43 killing Flying Officer Fleming RAAF. Inevitably it looks different to the illustration. Approx measurements of the tube are 152 mm long by 43 mm diameter.The tubes will take a 1.5 inch very cartridge. I can’t imagine how it fitted inside the fuselage. Lots missing but its a start.

Hi Tom,
Many thanks for the info, yeah I guess you have to keep the Ack Ack guys happy!
Those flares mentioned by Qldspitty carried in the rack on the front of the pilots seat, certainly a bit risky to my mind. Cannot say I would feel happy with that lot in that postion. But they were real men back then and probably wore thicker undies!

Movin on anyone have any photos of the parachute flare fitment in the belly of the plane Pt No 30064-Sht 21. A pair of them one behind the other, between frames 13-14, 14-15, on the port side. See the attached page from Spitty parts book.
The Lambeth machine certainly looks like it had them fitted and some stage, but patched over a long time back by the look of it.

Cheers, Chumpy.

Patch

When Lz842 was still here IIRC it was a fabric patch over the chute port.Can,t recall if it had the firing mechanism in it though.Doesn,t look too difficult to build.A few good pics and some rough measurements and you never know what will turns up.Is the flare itself a standard size,like the ones found on the rack on the front of the Spits seat??
Just a little stab in the dark…

Hello Chumpy

They are one and the same unit AFAIK, they just changed the mounting position from lower to upper fuselage, can’t remember why at the moment though, possibly to keep it out of the way of the cable runs…..

They were fitted up until ’42/’43, the mod to remove them didn’t come in until the middle of the war. I’ve read a few pilot reports of using the ‘colours of the day’ during evening/night flying, you had to watch those AA guns, shoot first, ask questions later 😉 Also, many of the armourers will tell you that checking the colours of the day in this unit was one of their daily jobs, though when this check was phased out I’m not sure.

One other question, would the hole in the skin have been fabric or newspaper patched and doped? as they used to apply doped newspaper to the gun ejector chute ports and I wondered if anybody knew any more?

Tom

Hi all,
Just to expand the debate a bit, often wondered if such devices were actually carried / used in a real shooting war?
Might seem like a nice idea to the men in the ministry etc, but operationally would you want flammable pyrotechnics inside your aircraft?

So maybe fitted to aircraft in the early months of the war, but perhaps removed at squadron level when the bullets began to fly?

Chumpy.

PS Is the illustration from Ian, the unit that fires out of the top of the fuselage, or the sort carried by early Mks that discharged from the underside?

J.Boyle, I know what you mean, I spent ages searching for info and sources for drawings etc, Plessey were the Manufacturers but they reckon they have nothing in their archive.

The actual landing flare tubes are another mystery item to me, other than a very general GA drawing there is very little info, it seems like they were afterthoughts on both sides of the pond!

JDK, have you got a cherry-picker? 😉 doubt the various museums would be too willing for me to be weilding a spanner on any of the ‘airborne’ spits, might drop something!

Ian, thanks for the info, PM on its way.

Regards Tom

Hi all,
Just to expand the debate a bit, often wondered if such devices were actually carried / used in a real shooting war?
Might seem like a nice idea to the men in the ministry etc, but operationally would you want flammable pyrotechnics inside your aircraft?

So maybe fitted to aircraft in the early months of the war, but perhaps removed at squadron level when the bullets began to fly?

Chumpy.

PS Is the illustration from Ian, the unit that fires out of the top of the fuselage, or the sort carried by early Mks that discharged from the underside?