Sir Norman Bettison

“I cannot see why they don’t build more nuclear reactors.”
Jim you will upset the yoghurt knitting tree huggers with a remark like that!:eek:

As for me the more the better, they can build one near me if it means I get cheaper electricity and dont have to type this by the light of my monitor!

Goodnight old chap thats my leccy for today gone!;)

Jim here is the breakdown of where our coal comes from(2010 figures) It has gone up since then but I can’t find the list of Counries for that.

http://www.ukcoal.com/why-coal/need-for-coal/world-coal-statistics

When I serviced copiers I repaired a copier on a very large ship in Portbury Dock. It was discharging 120,000 tons of coal from Australia. I was on the Bridge and looking across the Bristol Channel I could see South Wales as clear as day. !2,000 miles to bring coal as opposed to 25 to the Welsh Valleys as the crow flies!

Very interesting reading Paul,Although we have coal in abundance, it would seem they cannot drain the water out of the mines, and they have fallen into a state of disrepair.I have a half brother who has his own business in Southampton, he has a very large rib boat, and takes the windfarm engineers to and from the farms each day, whilst waiting for them to repair, check the pylons, vanes etc, he is also their rescue boat.
The engineers have told him the initial cost to recoupe the initial outlay will never be made, as the repair costs far outweigh the build cost, it was also muted, they will not last for 25yrs.
I don’t wish to get into an argument on the whys and wherefores, but I cannot see why they don’t build more nuclear reactors.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

Jim here is the breakdown of where our coal comes from(2010 figures) It has gone up since then but I can’t find the list of Counries for that.

http://www.ukcoal.com/why-coal/need-for-coal/world-coal-statistics

When I serviced copiers I repaired a copier on a very large ship in Portbury Dock. It was discharging 120,000 tons of coal from Australia. I was on the Bridge and looking across the Bristol Channel I could see South Wales as clear as day. !2,000 miles to bring coal as opposed to 25 to the Welsh Valleys as the crow flies!

I am not getting dragged into who was right or wrong. Let me just say it was a shameful day on both sides the like of which I hope we never see again.

The Police
Their job was to uphold the law,and allow “scab” labour to move without the threat of violence and intimidation. Make you own minds up on that or did Margeret Thatcher send word down to crush the strikers at any cost

The Strikers
Was it necessary to turn out in such force? I have sympathy for them when they had no money bills to pay and empty stomachs at home.

I have experience with riots in Ireland and I think any truthfull soldier will tell you that facing a mob hurling everything at you from rocks petrol bombs and rolling burning vehicles at you you get scared. All I had for protection was a pick handle a bloody useless shield and a flimsy visor not forgetting the guy at the back with a fire extinguiser to put you out.

The Rabble rousers/Commanders were always at the back(both sides) and we used snatch squads to try and get them.

For those to young to remember watch this(OK its biased but give you an idea of that day)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHyb7ELmHbA&feature=player_detailpage

Paul, I watched the U tube video, and it made me think, “Was it realy worth it at the end of the day?.
In my opinion, no, it wasn’t,We were heavily outnumbered that day, as the Miners had Flying pickets, not from just around the Orgreave area but from all over the Country.
My nick was closed, simply because of that, I was assigned office duties, for the duration, and Orgreave was the only time I was sent, at my then age, I was considered too old, but needs must.
I went there dressed as if I were walking the streets back home, No front line protection such as full Anti Riot shields, reinforced helmets, steel toe capped boots, or heavy batton, and no small shield either.Northern Ireland must have een a nightmare, at least the Miners never had guns that day.
I now realise we oldies were no more than cannon fodder that day, straight out the Transit, and on the flanks of the front line.
Once they had broken through our front line by sheer weight of numbers, it was every man for himself. Now we buy coal from Germany, ironic in a way.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

I am not getting dragged into who was right or wrong. Let me just say it was a shameful day on both sides the like of which I hope we never see again.

The Police
Their job was to uphold the law,and allow “scab” labour to move without the threat of violence and intimidation. Make you own minds up on that or did Margeret Thatcher send word down to crush the strikers at any cost

The Strikers
Was it necessary to turn out in such force? I have sympathy for them when they had no money bills to pay and empty stomachs at home.

I have experience with riots in Ireland and I think any truthfull soldier will tell you that facing a mob hurling everything at you from rocks petrol bombs and rolling burning vehicles at you you get scared. All I had for protection was a pick handle a bloody useless shield and a flimsy visor not forgetting the guy at the back with a fire extinguiser to put you out.

The Rabble rousers/Commanders were always at the back(both sides) and we used snatch squads to try and get them.

For those to young to remember watch this(OK its biased but give you an idea of that day)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHyb7ELmHbA&feature=player_detailpage

Jim

I wasn’t at Orgreave, from what I saw it certainly looked as if the miners were on the wrong end of the conflict, but the really wicked part of the whole damn thing was the police being used as Maggie’s militia.

Agree or disagree with Scargill, the strike or Tory policy, no government must ever again be permitted to use the police against the people of this country as an enforcer of government policy, law and order yes, but as a bunch of strong arm enforcers, no. For me that action stunk then and always will do.

Jim.

Debate is about the use of facts and figures, about the use of evidence. You draw purely on memory and anecdote which clearly doesn’t match with the version of events accepted by the Courts. As for me not being there, that doesn’t mean the events at Orgreave didn’t happen. I wasn’t present at Belsen or Dachau, or for the dropping of the atomic bomb at Hiroshima, but those events happened without my presence and I know the historical facts.

Let’s be charitable, you and many of the Officers alongside you were placed in an impossible situation with, by your own admission, NO leadership. The case brought by the Police against the pickets at Orgreave for riot collapsed because of insufficient evidence. Those are facts, not suppositions.

“Your begining to sound like one of those, standing at the back, just to stirr trouble up.”

You mean like that mythical “somewon” who may or may not have been in charge of Police operations at Orgreave that day?

On another note, please check your PM’s, I think I may have something that will interest you.

Regards,

kev35

Had I just ONE wish, it would be that I had access to a “Time machine” to take you back to Orgreave that day, W.T.S.H.T.F. I guarantee your views and forum statements, would change dramaticaly.
I know and am well aware that History has been recorded , ie Hiroshima and the likes, but even History, facts and figures, can be manipulated to read what the person recording it wants the reader to beleive. Have you ever read several books on a certain subject, only to find each has a different account on the same subject.
I stated what I saw, nothing more, nothing less
. I had, or have no need to gild the lilley as they say?,
Now going over to read P.M.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

Jim.

Debate is about the use of facts and figures, about the use of evidence. You draw purely on memory and anecdote which clearly doesn’t match with the version of events accepted by the Courts. As for me not being there, that doesn’t mean the events at Orgreave didn’t happen. I wasn’t present at Belsen or Dachau, or for the dropping of the atomic bomb at Hiroshima, but those events happened without my presence and I know the historical facts.

Let’s be charitable, you and many of the Officers alongside you were placed in an impossible situation with, by your own admission, NO leadership. The case brought by the Police against the pickets at Orgreave for riot collapsed because of insufficient evidence. Those are facts, not suppositions.

“Your begining to sound like one of those, standing at the back, just to stirr trouble up.”

You mean like that mythical “somewon” who may or may not have been in charge of Police operations at Orgreave that day?

On another note, please check your PM’s, I think I may have something that will interest you.

Regards,

kev35

As I said, I was there, YOU however were not, you havn’t got a leg to stand on, and I stand by what I said.
I would welcome being called as a witness, should it be re opened.
My memory of that day, is if it happened just a few days ago.
Stop disecting what I say, and, still using figures, not actual FACTS that YOU were not a participant in or even there, to argue with.
Your begining to sound like one of those, standing at the back, just to stirr trouble up.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

Ok Jim, let’s just pull your post apart shall we? You won’t give coherent answers to any of the points I raise for the simple reason you don’t have any. But let’s try anyway.

” Have you ever seen a charge of angry men….. no you haven’t”

Actually I have. The first time in London many years ago. A terrifying experience. The mob of angry men charging down a quiet London street were all wearing the uniform of the Metropolitan Police. The second time was when the Police abandoned New Street Station in Birmingham to two rival sets of football hooligans, with no thought for the safety of the thousands of passengers (and shopkeepers) left to their own devices.

“We older ones were straight off the Transit van, and sent into the lines, by our Sgt, ever been hit by an axe handle?, obviously not, and hopefully never will.”

In my case it was the repeated use of the boot and a cricket bat. Fractured skull, permanent damage to the eye socket, left arm weakness. Apparently, the x-rays proved to be of great interest to the Doctors.

“Yes, somewon may have been in charge, but no direct order was given to us.”

Someone may have been in charge? Do you actually realise what you have written? That 8,000 Police Officers were involved at Orgreave that day and you suspect ‘someone’ may have been in charge? That statement just beggars belief. But then you go and follow it up with this little gem…..

“….. but no direct order was given to us.”

Really? All 8,000 of you acted individually without orders? So that means you are now admitting that 8,000 Police Officers were just an uncontrolled mob having a scrap with 6,000 uncontrollable pickets? If there is an enquiry into Orgreave you’d better hope to God they don’t investigate you as a witness.

“As regards those that were arrested, they deserved what they (Should) have got, egged on by a few at the back, who hadn’t the guts to follow their own orders.”

Clearly not, or are you now suggesting that you should be Judge, Jury and Executioner? Why did the Court drop all charges? Because the evidence given by the Police was insufficient to gain a conviction. You talk about video footage. Surely that would have supported your claim that those arrested were guilty. Why was it not used in evidence? You will, as always, have NO coherent answer.

“And the lads I were with, didn’t have AK47s just a small wooden batton, Nor did we have the luxery of any means to protect ourselves against broken bottles, or bricks.that were thrown at us.”

Now why have you mentioned AK47’s? No means to protect yourselves? Some Officers were equipped with long shields and batons. Orgreave also saw the first use of Officers equipped with small shields and long batons. Also, some fifty odd Police Officers were on horseback and armed with batons. Fifty odd armed men on horseback charging repeatedly into a crowd can only be considered to be being used as Cavalry.

“…..as I said, YOU were not there.”

Honestly Lincoln? I am beginning to wonder whether you were.

“Yes, I would like to see the enquiry re opened, I suggest you get hold of some film footage, have a damned good look, and think twice before you post.again.All you seem to ever do is to argue facts from Google or WikipediA,”

Film footage was available at the time so why was it not enough to convict the 95 arrested and charged with riot? I presume the prosecution had a damned good look. Was it used? If so I suspect the Judge had a damned good look too. Still not enough to convict the 95 charged with riot or to stop the Court ordering South Yorkshire Police to pay £425,000 plus £100,000 costs to the thirty odd who actually ended up in court.

Believe me Jim, I look a lot further than Google and Wiki. Perhaps you should look further than your own failing memory and fervid imagination.

Regards,

kev35

Well Jim.
It’s about who checks the checker.
It grieves me to say that I don’t trust the Police–as I do also realise that they we need someone to keep order.
We as a society, and it is us–as a collective us–because after all the Police are paid for by us for our protection, have allowed them rather too much leeway in the past.

This mainly due to apathy on the part of many of us.
Lack of education, being too comfortable–whatever.

It’s the same with our so called politicians, it’s a pity more of us don’t take more interest in events before rather than after they happen.

Andy.

PS. I’m informed by herself that at Boston and Sleaford the stations are almost always empty. But no one walks.

You can add to those, Holbeach, Spalding, and quite a few more, no doubt.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

The Met has been corrupt for years. I have personal experience of backhanders being taken for favours in the early sixties. Having said that I don’t doubt that, as in many institutionalised organisations, there are bad pennies in amongst many good pennies.

As far as political leadership in the seventies is concerned – thank god we had some!

Alan.
I agree, but a lot of the MET Police went OTT that day, We stayed at an RAF base, when not required. One weekend,, the Mets many, many Transit vans were stopped on the A1 going back to London, they had stolen T.Vs from the quarters they were billited in and anything else that was not screwed down. NOT a single prosecution was brought against any of them.
Any one else would have been sacked, but the Met has built itself a bad reputation in many areas.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

Listening to a phone-in programme a little while back, there were a lot of
football fans saying the same thing. That the fans at Hillsborough should have
been held partly to blame. The enquiry had to pin the blame on someone,
and the police were (yet again) required to be the “fall guys”.

Well Jim.
It’s about who checks the checker.
It grieves me to say that I don’t trust the Police–as I do also realise that they we need someone to keep order.
We as a society, and it is us–as a collective us–because after all the Police are paid for by us for our protection, have allowed them rather too much leeway in the past.

This mainly due to apathy on the part of many of us.
Lack of education, being too comfortable–whatever.

It’s the same with our so called politicians, it’s a pity more of us don’t take more interest in events before rather than after they happen.

Andy.

PS. I’m informed by herself that at Boston and Sleaford the stations are almost always empty. But no one walks.

So why don’t you like the Police Andy?.
They were quite alright up until the early 90s.
I cannot remember the last time I saw a copper walking around my town. There is, every day 6 or 7 or some days more Police cars that never go out on patrol.
I used to drive into town, park up, and walk around and talk to folk, who approached me, but the coppers of today, I am sorry to say, mostly are a load of W*****s, bone idle, and never go out.
The Government tell us it’s paperwork that keeps them in, funny that, because if the never go out, where do they get their paperwork to do.
I am sorry to say, regarding todays Police, I have no time for them whatsoever,you have the few good ones, but they are few and far between. It’s the same as when they recruited University Grads, they were told they would be made a Sgt within 2 yrs, they had no real life experience, and that idea didn’t last long, they were good at paperwork, but dealing with situations, useless.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

Kev.
You said it better than me.

Let’s face it. Every headbanger who could pull on a pair of size nines and a pointed hat was up there to give those nasty miners a kicking–and getting overtime for it.
As far as I’m concerned it’s a period of British history I’m deeply ashamed to say I lived through.
I was living in Hertfordshire at the time–far away from South Yorks, but the bigotry I encountered among the new ‘middle classes’ or more accurately those that Thatcher had allowed to buy their council dwellings was deeply disturbing. I lost my faith in the leadership of this country that year–I’ve never regained it.
I don’t like the Police–before that I suppose, I had what one might describe as a healthy working class distrust of them–since then I think they are largely a fascist militia–imposed on us by politicians and money men to further their ends.
Perhaps it’s about time there was a closer interest taken by us all in the linkage via freemasonry (of which a high percentage of Police officers belong) and other people who may be on the square too.
Jimmy Saville and other senior BBC managers for instance.

Andy.

YOU were not there, so you cannot even quote your usual CARP as you call it. Have you ever seen a charge of angry men, running down the slope, carrying a TELEGRAPH pole, and slamming it into a line of Police Officers, no you havn’t, so I advise you to get your facts right before you post such rubbish.
We older ones were straight off the Transit van, and sent into the lines, by our Sgt, ever been hit by an axe handle?, obviously not, and hopefully never will.
Yes, somewon may have been in charge, but no direct order was given to us.
As regards those that were arrested, they deserved what they (Should) have got, egged on by a few at the back, who hadn’t the guts to follow their own orders.
And the lads I were with, didn’t have AK47s just a small wooden batton, Nor did we have the luxery of any means to protect ourselves against broken bottles, or bricks.that were thrown at us. Oh yes, you forgot to mention these poor Miners, who slashed the mounted Officers horses, as I said, YOU were not there.
I have no pocket books, they were handed in together with my Warrant Card and uniform when I retired.
We used to “Do the rounds of the Mines”, and frequently stopped and spoke to the Miners on Picket duty, standing around a 40 gallon drum, with a fire inside, we even talked and had a laugh with many of them, and I even shared a bacon butty with one at one time.and a cup of tea.
The trouble makers, were a group apart from the others, who were on that day hell bent on causing trouble. I did feel sorry for those on picket duty, and many others whoe’s lives were miserable, but their wives also came down to the picket lines and brought them food and hot drinks.
Yes, I would like to see the enquiry re opened, I suggest you get hold of some film footage, have a damned good look, and think twice before you post.again.All you seem to ever do is to argue facts from Google or WikipediA, but as I said, Were YOU there that day?.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

We “Won” the day in the end, but suffered a lot of casualties.
Organisation by the Police, my Ar*e.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

You won the day? You mean you kept your job and the miners didn’t? You mean 95 picketers were successfully prosecuted for riot? Of those charged with riot some were subsequently taken to court in 1987. All charges against them were dropped and South Yorkshire Police had to pay 39 of the accused the sum of £425,000 and £100,000 in costs.

You state that you were not told what to do and that there was no Plan B. So did you all just decide to make mounted charges off your own bat? Did you just all individually decide to force the picketers across an open and unsecured railway line? No Jim, you were led, and that leadership, by definition, was wrong, otherwise if the Police had acted correctly the Court would not have ordered all charges dropped and the Police to pay out over half a million pounds. And as silver fox has alluded to, it looks like things may yet get a lot worse for South Yorkshire Police if it can be proved that their evidence was at best tampered with and at worst fabricated.

Hope you’ve still got your notebook Jim, you might need it.

Regards,

kev35

I suppose he could claim for having pneumoconiosis from his time at Orgreave!

There is talk of “revisiting” police statements from that episode due to irregularities, don’t know if that will happen, I suspect another can of worms if it does.