SL721 takes part in Veteran Ceremony at the CAM(old thread 2003!)

What a difference 7 years makes!!!

I am a long time regular lurker on this forum, and rarely post. But when this old thread came back to life, and I saw my old post from 7 years ago, I had to reply.

What a difference 7 years has made!!! SL721 became the starting point for Vintage Wings Canada. My dream of seeing two Spitfires in formation over Ottawa has been realized several times, thanks to Vintage Wings and the Russell Group. And YES, there IS a Sabre in Golden Hawk colours, right here at Vintage Wings.

So, 7 years ago, a thread to say that 1 Spitfire and 1 Sabre would fly at a local airshow. Compare that with the lineup for tomorrow’s Vintage Wings airshow:

FORMATION FLIGHTS:

Battle of Britain flight:
– Lancaster Canadian Warplane Heritage (CWH)
– Mustang Vintage Wings (VWC)
– Corsair VWC
– Spitfire VWC
– Hurricane VWC

Victoria Cross Flight:
– Lancaster CWH
– Canso CWH
– Corsair VWC

Victory Flight:
– P-40 VWC
– Spitfire VWC
– Hurricane VWC

BCATP Flight:
– Harvard VWC
– Tiger Moth VWC
– Fleet Finch VWC

AEROBATIC PERFORMANCES:
– Harvard VWC
– Pitts Classic Wings (CW)
– Christine Eagle
– Sukoi
– Mustang VWC

FORMATION AEROBATICS:
– Harvards

JETS:
– Hawk One F-86 VWC
– F-86+L-39 CW
– L39 CW
– T-33 (Turbo) NEW

PARADE:
– Lysander VWC
– Staggerwing VWC
– Focke Wulf
– Beaver VWC
– Fox Moth VWC
– Tiger Moth VWC
– Fleet Finch VWC

Not quite Flying Legends, but compared to 2003 I think I’ve died and gone to warbird heaven!! And as more of the Vintage Wings restoration projects get off the ground it will only get better.

All I can say is thanks again to Michael Potter and his incredible team at Vintage Wings for putting the Ottawa area on the warbird map is such an amazing way.

A somewhat late reply, but this is the anniversary of the Battle for Britain, with much publicity for the Spitfire, and I came across this web site by chance. I can’t find the other forum that was discussing SL721 and the Meteor 549 but I just wanted to comment that My Father WAS Air Chief Marshal Sir James Robb and SL721 was indeed his personal Spitfire, as was The High Speed Meteor E549. This was also painted blue with the letters JMR.
Anne Induni.

Thanks for all the discussion and info about SL721. While those of you on the UK side of the pond may have several Spitfires to choose from, I count myself fortunate to live in the Ottawa area and have a few opportunities to see just this one Spitfire.

Maybe someday MK912 can visit Ottawa and we’ll get to see two in formation. WELL I CAN DREAM CAN’T IT!!

For those of you in the Ottawa area, note that SL721 is scheduled to fly again at an airshow in Carp, just west of the city, on August 23 and 24. There will also be a Sabre there. First time for a Sabre in Ottawa in decades I suspect. I’m certain there’s never been one since the early 1970s when I moved here. US colours, not Canadian, but beggars can’t be chooses. Suppose they’ll repaint it as a Golden Hawk ….. NOT.

Point taken… :rolleyes: lol

To illustrate the perils of interpreting colour from b/w photos I asked a good friend in Poland to apply various black and white filters to the ‘Robb’ colour sample to bias the blue and the yellow to show the effects of pan and ortho b/w film of the period.

SL721 as AU-J

Thanks for the discussion and photos on SL721. I just got home from Ottawa last night and am happy to see some mention of the presentation of this past Monday. It was expected to draw a crowd of 160 – 200 and the Museum said they counted 2000+ there. Needless to say, they were swamped. Mike was amazed at the crowd. I reminded him that it is a “Spitfire” and it does draw attention.
Mike and I are very aware of the significance of the history of SL721 and the rare blue livery she wore when she was AVM Robb’s personal a/c. The problem was that 99.99% of the public does not understand why it was painted that way and are disappointed with it. When asked what to do if it were “my” Spitfire, I suggested painting her up in camouflage, and in an accurate Canadian Squadron markings. Since 721 is a “low back” I suggested doing her as TB886 AU-J, flown by Bill Harper, since this was the only “low back” Mk XVI to see action while with a Canadian squadron. Mike didn’t want the “Dorothy II” logo on the cowl for personal reasons. Robert Bracken had been a friend of Bill Harper before he passed on and supplied me with all Bill’s personal photos, one of which showed TB886 with the “Dorothy II” logo weathered off the cowl. This meant that leaving the logo off would still make the paint scheme accurate. Robert also told me how Bill Harper had always wanted the McColl-Frontennac “red Indian” decal on his new Spitfire but by that time they were out of the decals. We decided to include it in memory of Bill’s wishes. This makes the a/c distinctly Canadian as most people are not familiar with squadron code to recognise AU as the code for 421 Sq. RCAF. I spen a total of three weeks in Goderich this past winter and spring doing our utmost to get her accurate with no compromises. She is still SL721 with her distintive history and her full wingtips and luggage bay cannon bays with no cannon bulges. Yes she looks glossy but believe it or not, the final clear coat is semi-gloss. I managed to get the mirror taken off of the windscreen.
Mike let many ex Spitfire pilots sit in her on Monday and have their photo taken. It was a very emotional experience seeing grown men break down and weep in the cockpit of a Spit for what they know will probably be the last time(?). Some paint got scuffed and scraped form this and when Mike’s aircraft handler said that they could buff out the marks later he told him “leave them there, they are honourable scrapes and marks”.
I wish that I knew how to display photos on this site for you guys, but can e-mail direct if someone wants to something in particular or has any questions about SL721 or the paint scheme.
Cheers
Bob S.

Tour de force answers Mark 12!

Your reputation goes before you;)

The last test piece, being held skyward in the previous photo, was deemed to give the best representation of the b/w photos. You can see the problem by comparing the fuselage blue with the early and late roundel reds and ditto blues.
Shortly after F M Wilcox purchased the Spitfire in 1955, to put on display at his Swandean Garage, he repainted the aircraft to represent the aircraft as last flown by Robb. His initial application of the five stars was on a correct official blue background but this was later changed to red and said to be prompted by Robb himself. The attached photo shows painting part way through with the cowlings and spinner still in the darker blue applied by the CFS for their ‘One Star’ scheme.

Photo Credit to Mr Sam Fox.

Blimey Mark,you’re a man who knows his Spits!Thanks for the background on her service and various colour schemes,I have to say I didn’t realise how many alterations and repaints she had whilst she was Robb’s aircraft.That darker blue is the colour I associate ‘721 with rather than the light one,so perhaps I’m just biased against the light blue one anyway!
You’re right about the modern film affecting the look of the colour,I’ve been looking at various pics of her since this issue came up and I can’t find two photo’s from the last 5 years or so which agree with each other on the tone of the blue.

Ant,
Since being purchased by Woodson K Woods from Doug Arnold in 1976, SL721 has been painted in two basic schemes up until the sale to Mike Potter. They were the WK-W scheme and the ‘James Robb’ scheme. There were minor adjustments along the way, spinner colour etc.
As I am sure you will know, SL721 was the actual personal aircraft of ACM Sir James Robb. The aircraft was painted at least four times in the “Blue” scheme whilst in RAF service. Contemporary paperwork shows that Vickers at South Marston did the refit for luggage facility and the special paint. The aircraft was loaned briefly to another senior ranking officer and belly landed, with Vickers again coming to the rescue. The original JM-R ‘Three Star’ scheme was adjusted with Robb’s promotion to C in C Air Forces Western Europe, the repaint incorporating a JMR code aft of the revised roundel. The aircraft was painted with an un-official ‘Five Stars’ to match his US Army equivalent. When Robb retired his machine went on charge to the Central Flying School, retaining the JMR code and adjusted to a ‘One Star’ on the appropriate blue background. At this point a further repaint at CFS seems to have used a darker blue which may well have been PR Blue. The background colour panel to Robb’s five stars in theory should be blue but paperwork with the first private owner in the l950’s suggests it was actually red, the Army colour, and this was changed whilst on display in Worthing and latterly at Beaulieu, up until departure to the US for the first time in 1965.
Whilst the Chris Wood scheme is technically an amalgam of the JM-R scheme combined with ‘Five Stars’ on red, together with a personal spinner, an enormous amount of work went into studying the tonal qualities of the ‘Blue’ on all the available period black and white photos. Test pieces were photographed and tonally compared in B/W. To my knowledge no colour slides of SL721 in these original JM-R and JMR schemes has surfaced although we do have colour shots at Worthing and Beaulieu. So perhaps not quite the ‘nearest blue in the Dulux chart’ as you have implied. I have many colour shots in the Chris Woods scheme, from a variety of sources, and the modern colour films give a wide interpretation of the blue. I suspect you may have been a victim of this variation.
Mark12

SL721 in the original JMR ‘Five Star’ scheme circa 1951……a trick of the light?

Ok,ok,so I take back the bit about the ‘ridiculous’ colour schemes, but to be honest I’d not seen that WK-W scheme before,and it looks rather good!:rolleyes: I’m sure I’ve seen her in a more inaccurate camo job wearing those codes more recently??
As for the ‘correct’ shade of blue,I take that back too.What I meant was something closer to the original.I know it’s a matter of personal interpretation,but the light blue scheme she wore just before this recent repaint looked to be wide of the mark to my eye.
I think we can agree that the green/brown camo she wore way back in the early 70’s was not too accurate anyway!
Apologies for the confusion…

OK so it is semi-gloss but that is straight off the works drawings using Ministry of Aircraft Production colour chips. Now go back beyond 1978 and I raise my hand in agreement but come on – that was 25 years ago!

………just a little research.
What was wrong with the previous scheme WK-W that goes back to 1978?

Excuse me Ant – correct shade of blue? You obviously know a lot about this. Would you care to tell me the colour that the good Air Chief Marshal specified. Please please do not tell me it was PR Blue. And to follow……..

Nice pics BC,thanks for those.It’s good to see her in a decent colour scheme after some of the inaccurate and frankly pretty ridiculous looking ones she’s been dressed up in for the last 20 years or so.I’d still like to see her painted up in her ‘JM-R’ codes with the correct shade of blue at some point in the future when it’s time for that camo one to come off.
Thanks again BC. 🙂

Close up of SL721